• CloutAtlas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      My dude calls people statists but then also cites death tolls spouted by the US State department on Mao’s casualties is a level of mental gymnastics that may finally dethrone the Maga morons.

      I’m sure there’s some explanation for how Mao killed 100,000,000 people but somehow the population of China went up and the life expectancy doubled under him. It can’t be because the US stat dept. exaggerated the deaths by an exponent tho.

      这个老外真过瘾,哈哈

      • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        China is fascist now, they can go on calling themselves communist in a vain attempt to have something resembling legitimacy. But any fool knows that when the ruling party is full of billionaires, that’s no communist system.

        They Chinese people are a great people and deserve a better government than the fascist regime lead by Winnie Xi Pooh.

          • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            How is it racism to say Chinese people are great people?

            It’s just their government sucks. They deserve better.

            • Flinch [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              I’m excited to hear you explain how comparing a Chinese man to a cartoon character with yellow skin and beady eyes isn’t racist nicholson-yes

              • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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                1 year ago

                Because it’s not saying Chinese people look like Winnie the Pooh. It’s only Xi looks like Winnie the Pooh. Do you understand the distinction between insulting an ethnicity and insulting an individual?

                And you must’ve been living under a rock (or behind a firewall in an authoritarian country) if you’ve never heard of Xi being compared to Winnie the Pooh. I hear he’s sensitive about it, and it’s banned to make such statements in China. But since I’m not in China and Xi is a piece of shit, this incentivizes me to insult that shithead in ways that hurts his fragile little ego.

                Oh bother!

                • Flinch [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Xi is Chinese you dipshit, you are comparing a Chinese man to a cartoon character with yellow skin and beady eyes. Please, continue. xinternet

        • CloutAtlas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          I know we are a great people. I am Chinese.

          You have it wrong. The Communist Party isnt producing billionaires or getting rich through corruption (at least not in the recent decade of anti corruption). Billionaires join the CPC for THEIR benefit, clout and image.

          China is the only country that actually punishes billionaires for their crimes instead of giving them a slap on the wrist, house arrest or just straight up not punishing them. China executes billionaires when they commit a crime. Liu Han ordered a Mafia hit on a villager who protested one of his illegal real estate expansions, as well as a business rival. He was executed for murder. China is the only country in the world that would sentence someone worth $40 billion, let alone to death, let alone not given a presidential pardon. Jack Ma regularly oversteps and gets punished by the CPC.

          The only billionaire the west has executed is Jeff Epstein (for entirely the wrong reasons). China’s executed 14+ in the last decade.

          If there was a snap election todaty in China with 100% voter turnout, the Communist Party would be re-elected tonight. The party responsible for improving the lives for 1.4 billion people actually isn’t disliked in China. The Chinese are not without grievances with the government but literally no other political system in the world has matched Chinese progress over the last 70 years. The average Chinese person isn’t unaware of western Liberal democracy, it simply isn’t appealing. A system that’s basically a popularity contest that elects senile old men, cowboy actors and reality TV stars that have no business being statesmen is actually not a good system. Having lifetime appointed judges to interpret the words of long dead slave owners is not a good system. Having a leadership spill and a change of prime minister every year is not a good system. We can improve on freedom of expression, sure, but the Chinese people aren’t sheep who need to be liberated. Neoliberalism is the failure in the world, not the Chinese model.

          • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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            1 year ago

            Billionaires join the CPC for THEIR benefit, clout and image.

            Yeah that’s how it works in a fascist system. The wealthy join the ruling party and gain connections to other wealthy people so they can all become wealthier.

            The existence of billionaires in China indicates that China is not communist. If it were communist the wealth of the billionaires would be seized and redistributed to the people. China is a country where billionaires are legal and labour unions are illegal.

            And your obsession with executions is indicative devaluing life. And it’s interesting that you buy into the conspiracy that Epstein was killed to silence him but haven’t considered the possibility that executions happen in China for the same reason.

            If there was a snap election todaty in China with 100% voter turnout, the Communist Party would be re-elected tonight.

            Then why isn’t there an election? Why aren’t opposition parties allowed in China? If the CCP would easily win an election, why not have them?

            It’s because China is fascist. I think you’re confusing fascism with corporatism. They’re not at all the same. in fascism there’s a hierachy and corporations benefit by falling in line with the hierarchy. Winnie Xi Pooh (who shouldn’t even be leader, but pesky rules bout term limits don’t apply to autocrats) is at the top. Questioning his authority gets you executed. The leadership of China is most certainly misogynistic. The propaganda in China is all about century of humiliation kind of things. China is anti-democracy. These are all the properties of a fascist system.

            And yeah fascists will lie about being left wing. See “National Socialism”.

            • CloutAtlas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Billionaires exist as a necessary evil, they’re not deities like they are to the west like Gates or Bezos, or a pillar of power like Russian oligarchs. China may not be Marxist as it is, but to completely cut away from the rest of the globe would be suicide. Market socialism relies on being a necessary part of the global economy, and China being able to manufacture in it’s current state while being able to raise the conditions of the proletariat makes it either the worst socialist state or the best capitalist state. Neither is worth of the vitriol it has received. If they must exist, better they exist for the benefit of the people rather than own media companies that push right wing agenda.

              The fixation with executions comes from the accusation that billionaires are in charge. It they truly were, they wouldn’t be subject to the same laws as the common folk, and yet herr they are. Unlike Russia or the west, they are held accountable for their actions to a higher degree. All else equal, the CPC treats billionaires worse than any other form of government, and that’s not a bad thing.

              For your second point re: elections: Why? The US doesn’t even have free elections, an electoral college overrules pupular vote, nor does the UK, the king and house of Lords aren’t subject to democracy. The Soviets had a free election in 91, voted to remain socialist,nand it was hijacked by the west. Allende was democratically elected and the west supported the usurper. An election while liberalism exists is just inviting interference. Taiwan didn’t have elections for 4 decades and were still beloved by liberalss. The house of Saud doesn’t have elections, did 9/11 and is a close US ally.

              If the outcome is obvious, why waste time and resources to indulge western sensibilities, as if bourgeoisie democracy is a human norm, when you can skip that step and move on with increasing society? If it just leads to a Chinese Jan 6th, or worse, why would that possibly be on the table? The CPC would win and somehow the losers would obtain US military grade weapons and seize power. And even if there were no interference and the CPC won anyway, guess what? Every paper in the west would claim it was rigged.

              • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
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                1 year ago

                Ren Zhengfei, the CEO of Huawei, has had people arrested and thrown into a dungeon. Billionaires here don’t have that level of power.

                You keep imagining yourself as some communist revolutionary, but you’re just another useful idiot that’s been fooled by fascist propaganda.

                You should know that fascists are liars and will even label themselves as “communist” if it furthers their goals of acquiring power.

                After the ruling party of China did the Tiananmen Square massacre (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre) and got away with it, they shifted to being fascist thugs whose only goal was to maintain and expand their power.

                If you’re gonna support fascist thugs, at least be honest about who they are. You look really silly otherwise.

                • CloutAtlas [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  Source? Zhengfei couldn’t even keep his own daughter out of prison. Xi has been the one to crack down on billionaires (part of why a lot of my family like him better than Hu) so if it happened ages ago, I don’t remember. Even so, he’s less wealthy than Jack Ma, who is subject to the CPC’s rules, not vice versa.

                  All I know is the CPC has done more for the working class, lifted more workers out of poverty than any of the government’s that have earned your respect.

                  If all they wanted to do post 1989 was to maintain and expand power why the fuck haven’t they? Mongolia is right there, the Qing annexed it, the ROC annexed it, but the PRC can’t? Why forgive loans for Africa?

                  Why exempt Tibetans and Uyghurs and Mongolians from the One Child Policy? What kind of fascism does population control on the Han majority but not the minorities in their country?

                  If the goal was to acquire power, there are dozens of regimes that have done a better job at seizing absolute power, but instead the CPC open up more? The Juche government of the DPRK has absolute power, why didn’t China cloister itself from the world like pre Deng? Or start proxy wars in foreign countries to push nationalist jingoism?

                  I support my countrymen, no fascist thugs. If you’ve ever been to China you’d know it’s not some Orwellian nightmare state. Listening to the media’s portrayal of China when they lie or twist the truth on just about anything else is the brain worm talking. China’s fascist like Saddam has WMDs.

                  Think about where you’ve gotten your conception of China from and question whether or not they’re biased. You’re talking to someone with first hand experience in China.

      • Fox@pawb.social
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        1 year ago

        ATTENTION

        Your account has been flagged for CCP tankie shill-like activity. Please review These Nuts and never forget that Mao killed more people than Stalin and Hitler combined!

          • Fox@pawb.social
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            1 year ago

            Your logic is baffling. Hitler killed millions of people in the Holocaust. Mao killed millions more, yet he’s still a folk hero. Where is the disconnect here?

            • Ram_The_Manparts [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              It’s funny how you clowns keep pretending that the only deaths Hitler caused were the ones that specifically happened in the death camps, as if he didn’t literally start WWII. And meanwhile you insist that every single stubbed toe and premature ejaculation that ever happened in a socialist country should be added to the “victims of communism” death toll.

              The double standard is baffling.

            • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              That the only way you can come to the conclusion that Mao “killed more” is if you’re deliberately downplaying how many Hitler killed, aka Holocaust denial.

              • Fox@pawb.social
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                I may have missed the lesson where numbers aren’t allowed to be bigger than other numbers, so let me rephrase this in a way you might be able to understand. The most conservative estimate of famine deaths during the Great Leap Forward (backward) is greater than the ENTIRE European Jewish population in 1933 by at least six million.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  Source: it came to me in a dream.

                  I also like how you’re deliberately trying to whitewash Hitler by ignoring all the non-Jewish deaths he was responsible for.

                  Seriously, you’re trying to argue that Mao “killed” every single person who starved to death in a famine, but Hitler is completely innocent of any of the deaths that occurred in World War 2. It’s a double standard no one would employ unless they were trying to downplay Hitler’s crimes.

                • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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                  Famines were extremely common before the CPC came to power. Most Chinese people lived in extreme poverty, and life expectancy was less than 35, with no significant improvement under the KMT. In between Mao coming to power and his death, life expectancy in China nearly doubled. Today, average life expectancy in China has exceeded that of the US, a feat that would’ve been unimaginable back then.

                  It’s true that Mao made misteps (which the CPC readily admits), but those specific, dramatic events have been disproportionately elevated to obscure the more general trend, which has been drastic improvements in the lives of the people of China.

                  Of course, in addition to minimizing the frequency and severity of famines in pre-industrial China, your history books likely did not place the same level of blame on the British for the intentional famines which Ireland and India were subjected to, in which Britain did not only refuse to provide aid to their colonial subjects (often on the express basis that it would motivate people to work harder), but also did not cease their plundering - in both cases, food was exported out of the country while the people starved.

              • emizeko [they/them]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                China’s growth in life expectancy between 1950 and 1980 ranks as among the most rapid sustained increases in documented global history.

                louder, for everyone in the back.

                CHINA’S GROWTH IN LIFE EXPECTANCY BETWEEN 1950 AND 1980 RANKS AS AMONG THE MOST RAPID SUSTAINED INCREASES IN DOCUMENTED GLOBAL HISTORY.

                :mao-wave:

            • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              Mao killed trillions of people!!1!1!1111 Stalin killed zillions and Xi is killing gorillions!1111!!1! Omgomgomg wake up sheeple, time to inbade chyna! Heil Amerikkka, Heil Anglostani!

      • zephyreks@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        “Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defence zone on Wednesday”

        The article says ADIZ, not airspace.

  • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    1 year ago

    Ten Chinese air force aircraft entered Taiwan’s air defence zone . . . Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.

    For those unfamiliar with the Air Defense Identification Zone:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Defense_Identification_Zone_(Taiwan)

    Not only does it include a lot of water that isn’t part of the Strait, right off of China’s coast, it also includes a portion of Mainland China a few times larger than Taiwan itself.

    People like to talk like China is flying jets over Taipei City, but you can fly a plane from one city in Mainland China to another, only passing over land, and be in this zone. Mind you, I don’t think Taiwan having this zone is bad – countries generally should be aware of air traffic nearby – but this is part of a long history of alarmist headlines by western media regarding what is often very uninteresting air traffic in the PRC.

    • RandAlThor@lemmy.caOP
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      1 year ago

      So Chinese bots are on lemmy too now. You obviously didn’t read the article - “Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.”

      In international relations, militaries have defined and at times unspoken rules of engagement. This was NOT routine flight over mainland China that you are making out to be, but was a clear breach of said protocols. Thus Taiwan sent its fighter jets to observe the Chinese military aircraft.

      • socsa@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        First day? Lemmygrad brigades every worldnews thread about China or Russia.

      • panopticon [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        So Chinese bots are on lemmy too now.

        Amazing how comfortable you are being racist on a public forum.

        Anyway, people should look at this map and take note of how far Taiwan’s ADIZ extends into Fujian province of mainland China and the open ocean (which is the southwest corner the PRC’s airplanes were supposedly encroaching on). These articles are obviously published to make China seem more aggressive than it really is. Meanwhile the US, with the most powerful navy in the world, parades its warships through the Taiwan strait, which for some reason is not seen as a threat or provocation. Also Taiwan claims the mainland as its own territory. Oh, poor little Taiwan. Lol, get off it.

        • randint@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Yes, the ADIZ includes part of China, but this article is mainly about jets crossing the median line of Taiwan Strait. Also I don’t think Taiwan gets mad over any jets intruding the “overclaimed” part of the ADIZ.

        • RandAlThor@lemmy.caOP
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          1 year ago

          How is calling out a Chinese bot or Russian bot racist? You are obviously pro-China and you didn’t read the article. That makes you a Chinese bot.

          • DoiDoi [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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            “How am I being racist? I’m just assuming anyone who disagrees with me must be a certain ethnicity and/or bot.”

            This really isn’t too complicated. Stop using Chinese as a pejorative and “bot” as a thought terminating cliche. It prevents any meaningful discussion, and yes, it’s also very racist.

          • panopticon [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            Sir or Ma’am, I am a US citizen of Chinese descent and I assure you that you are being a cracker, and you can stop any time.

            My bias is towards peace and against interfering in other countries’ internal affairs. Taiwan is part of China, this was settled in 1972. It’s only in recent years that the US has taken a hostile stance against the PRC since its peaceful economic rise has started to threaten US hegemony. This is not my fight, it’s not your fight, it is the fight of the US ruling class—its political establishment and its financial oligarchs. China and the US should be allies, and we should be putting our combined labor into decarbonization, healing the ecosphere, reparations for the global south, and preparing communities for the effects of climate change.

            Also, my family immigrated from Hong Kong before it was released from British rule, so ~by your logic~ I should be against China, which I’m not, because I’m capable of critical thinking.

            Oh, and one more thing: countdown

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Yeah, obviously it’s a glorified puppet state but there’s no point in arguing from that standpoint here. If a country is to exist, it should know about local air traffic, that’s all I’m saying.

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            I started writing out a timeline but I don’t know what position you’re asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China so that the US could us the island as a threat against China – as it also attempted to do in Korea when it had more-or-less complete control of the southern half. Taiwan spent about 40 years as a military dictatorship killing tens of thousands of dissidents, native Formosans, and others (this was called the “White Terror”), while their patron the US looked the other way while it pumped resources into the country (for the ruling class, mind you) to use the island as a sweatshop site in the interim. This legacy and its connections to fellow US puppet South Korea and US ally Japan go a long way to explaining its current capacity in manufacturing, which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.

            Both Taiwan and SK have made various attempts to assert themselves (with some success in both cases), but with the pathetic diplomatic position of the former and the continued military occupation of the latter by the US, I think “puppet state” is a fair title for them, perhaps as much as Israel, but that’s its own can of worms.

            I didn’t really intend on getting into litigating this topic, but I’m happy to discuss it as best I can.

            • randint@lemm.ee
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              I started writing out a timeline but I don’t know what position you’re asking from so I will say for the sake of brevity that the US kept the KMT from being run out of all of China […] which make up its other value to the US besides geographical position.

              Yes, I know about its not-so-glorious past and the White Terror. Thousands of innocent civilians were killed. It was terrible. However, I must respectfully disagree with you on the “puppet state” part. I don’t think that Taiwan is a puppet state. The US sponsoring Taiwan is a thing of the past. Neither is a pathetic diplomatic position a good reason for being a puppet state.

              • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                I didn’t see this reply before. The other commenter has it right that the relevance of its pathetic diplomatic position is that it is being propped up by the US/NATO and ultimately depends on them to exist apart from the PRC, which makes it very difficult to oppose them. Incidentally, does the US not sponsor Taiwan? Even just recently there was this, which sure seems like sponsorship to me.

                • randint@lemm.ee
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                  1 year ago

                  Apparently being sponsored by a foreign state is now counted as being a puppet state?

              • silent_water [she/her]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                if US support dropped overnight, reunification with the mainland would become inevitable. it’s a puppet state in the sense that it’s propped up by the might of the US/NATO military.

            • StalinForTime [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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              Not only did the US turn a blind eye to the White Terror, but they were positively gleeful about it, as a key target of it was of course not only indigeneous-politics based, but fundamentally anti-communist.

              Indeed a basic presupposition of the US providing you such extensive economic support, as a forward base in Asia against communism, is that you crush any opposition to its ‘proper’ functioning as such an economic and military asset. That supposes that you will crush any radical, labor, trade-union, let alone explicitly socialist or communist activity which appears to challenge the state.

          • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            The PRC wants a peaceful reunification, which would not be aided by them continuously flying military jets over the island. I, too, would prefer peaceful reunification, which means some level of cooperation and tolerance is necessary.

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          Like asking yankoids what they want to do with “their land”, the question is pointless and only serves to legitimize a faulty preposition.

          The ROC also still claims to be the legitimate government of all of China (plus Mongolia and a sizable chunk of Russia) so its not like they’re just sitting there minding their own business either.

          • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.net
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            The ROC also claims the South China Sea as its own and has build naval bases in there. Even the DPP doesn’t want to give up those naval bases. So, it’s the Republic of Taiwan to stick it to the Mainland commies, but “akctually, we’re the Republic of China, and the South China Sea is part of Chinese naval waters, so we get to build as many naval bases as we want” to Vietnam and Indonesia.

          • randint@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            Do you even know why the pro-independence party (DPP) lost so badly in the local election for mayors? Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy, not because they didn’t agree with the foreign policies DPP was pushing! (Please note that I’m not saying most people agree.) In local elections, people are going to choose whoever they believe would be the best for the city/county, not the one whose views on China they agree with.

            Additionally, if you look at the latest opinion poll for the presidental election next year, you’d be surprised to find out that the candidate from the pro-independence party is leading.

            Source: am Taiwanese

            ps. you made a typo in your comment. it was the 2022 local election, not 2020.

            • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Because the people were disappointed in what DPP had done with the economy

              inciting conflict with your biggest trading partner does tend to have negative effects on the economy

              • randint@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Well yeah I guess, but really it’s more about the policies they had been pushing domesticlly

                • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  i am sure the success or failure of those domestic policies were not in the least contingent on international political conditions. the economic policies of an island that imports 97% of its energy with a food self sufficiency rate of around 30% and exports accounting for 70% of gdp can in no way be considered to be overexposed or at risk to trade fluctuations and even if that were the case, i am sure that foreign policy would not play an outsize role in determining the magnitude or periodicity of said trade fluctuations.

          • oatscoop@midwest.social
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            1 year ago

            Because a poll asking a direct question is a hell of a lot more accurate in gauging how the population feels about the issue.

            Political parties can lose elections for their stances/actions outside their main one – which seems to have been the case per the actual person from Taiwan that responded to your comment. It doesn’t matter what a party is called or what their main goals are if they’re bad at their job.

            If and when the people of Taiwan decide they want reunification, it will happen. Thankfully Beijing isn’t going to be allowed to force the issue.

            • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              You want polls, how about this poll conducted by a Taiwanese university where the majority of Taiwanese want neither reunification nor independence, but the status quo? The majority of Taiwanese people wanting the status quo lines up with how the pro-independence party ate shit while the pro-status quo party made huge gains. The DPP got BTFO so hard the current DPP president Tsai Ing-wen had to resign as party head.

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                The majority of Taiwanese people has always wanted to remain status quo, as indicated by the two triangle data lines in the plot. Since declaring independence is basically asking China to attack and that peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population) either, the majority are of course pro-status quo. It does not line up with how DPP ate shit last year.

                • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  peaceful reunification is not desirable (for >90% of the population)

                  Again, this was “forced” reunification in that poll, i.e. military takeover. Of course people oppose that. I think at least the plurality opinion is against peaceful reunification under the PRC too, but it’s not by as high a margin.

            • randint@lemm.ee
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              Thank you for mentioning me. Makes me feel like not all people on this thread is pro-China. :D

  • Jesus@lemm.ee
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    Lots of suspicious comments in this thread. Seems like political astro-turfing has already arrived on Lemmy

      • Jesus@lemm.ee
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        Possibly, I didn’t look where they’re all from, nor do I know what hexbear is or why it’s significant. Sounds like some kind of intra-Lemmy drama which I’m not too interested in. Just noticed a fair amount, lets say…not totally organic, seemingly agenda pushing comments.

        Edit: Forget my previous comment. I now see the problem with Hexbear.

          • Jesus@lemm.ee
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            No it’s when there’s mysteriously dozens of comments just magically showing up that are contrary to the vastly popular opinion on only one contentious issue, that serve the best interests of an entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion through fake grassroots posting. Also that entity has a fragile ego and a long history of online manipulation…oh and also coincidentally they are all coming from the same server

            • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              entity with the time, resources to try to sway public opinion

              why would any foreign political entity waste its valuable english proficient resources on astroturfing an online backwater filled with politically illiterate nobodies? peak liberal solipsism

              • Jesus@lemm.ee
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                It would appear that way yes…and as mentioned, they have a history of having extremely thin skin and doing exactly that. So do I expect some group to do the exact thing they have always done? Yes. Yes I do.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  And by “have a history of it” you mean "I’ve been told it so many times in the western echo chambers I hang out it that I just implicitly believe it.

                  Mate, you’ve already had it explained to you where we’re coming from, but apparently the idea of people who genuinely disagree with you is so fucking foreign to you that your redditor brain literally cannot process it, so you continue to descend into paranoid delusion.

                • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  I would like to ask you to employ some critical thinking here. Setting aside that the people responding to you have much better English than even a pretty high-level English speaker coming from Mandarin, most of these accounts have months or years of post histories spent almost entirely talking to each other on their previously un-federated instance, including in some cases very harsh arguing, as well as talking about the US on a personal level with intimate detail (and/or whatever other country they say they are from). Do you really believe the most simple answer is that this is all kabuki theater by the CPC to astroturf an obscure collection of websites by wasting a ridiculous amount of resources and the time of highly English-fluent actors? vs just “some people think differently from you”?

                  If you concede this point, then I would like to ask you to just consider for a moment the implications of the fact that you took the much more absurd and flimsy explanation as though it was just the common-sense explanation. What does that say about the way that you conceptualize the world and what people believe?

              • Jesus@lemm.ee
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                Anyone with half a brain can see what’s going on. I’m not playing these silly obfuscation games. You’re bad at what you do.

                • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  Yes, anyone with half a brain can see that people from a leftist instance are contributing leftist opinions to a space they just federated with. What were you expecting?

    • Gsus4@feddit.nl
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      Yea, it feels like 4chan suddenly saw the light and then turned far-left all at once. They act like what the far right imagines the left to be like, but just looks like really bad anti-leftist propaganda, or they’re just tankies :/ some hexbears are ok, though, but most here are just discrediting themselves by throwing the propaganda handbook at the passersby.

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      You are so far right that you call anything and everything to your left astroturfing. You’ve been in a bubble for so long that it’s a culture shock when you meet actual leftists.

      • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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        Oh, yes. Actual leftists that somehow support every action of a particular nation. Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information and gives incentives for supporting them publicly. Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to. Yep, totally sounds like actual leftists to me…

        • nohaybanda [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          The topic at hand is Western media drumming up support for the US’s next foreign policy disaster. The same way they did for Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Vietnam and so, so many others. I would have called this bullshit before I became a communist. You don’t need Marxist theory to see through the bullshit, just object permanence.

        • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.

          Some people should be removed from society based on the groups they belong to. Nazis, for example. Pedophiles, probably. And definitely people who put pineapple on pizza.

          • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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            No, they should be removed from society based on what they want to do. I don’t think the children of nazis should be removed just because they’re a part of that group.

            • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              Ideological belief is not a trait that is automatically passed on to children. Children of Liberals aren’t automatically liberals. Children of conservatives aren’t automatically conservatives.

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          Actual leftists who don’t mind government control of information

          Yes, actual leftists. I’m going to quote to you some Marx. This is from Chapter 2 of the Communist Manifesto which is basically a 30 page pamphlet, I suggest you read it. I want you to pay particular attention to number 6.

          The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralise all instruments of production in the hands of the State, i.e., of the proletariat organised as the ruling class; and to increase the total productive forces as rapidly as possible.

          Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable as a means of entirely revolutionising the mode of production.

          These measures will, of course, be different in different countries.

          Nevertheless, in most advanced countries, the following will be pretty generally applicable.

          1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

          2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

          3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

          4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

          5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

          6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

          7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

          8. Equal liability of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

          9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

          10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children’s factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c, &c.

          As you can see, nothing here is at odds with that.

          Actual leftists that are ok with some people being removed from society because of the groups they belong to.

          What groups? If you’re about to use Adrian Zenz as a source you are a joke. If you’re instead claiming that working to abolish the existence of the bourgeoisie is a bad thing you are a clown.

      • Stahlreck@feddit.ch
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        You’ve been in a bubble

        Yeah because when all these “lefts” come from seemingly one instance (maybe two) they are totally not “living in a bubble” on their own.

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          Yes it is. Your failure to understand China’s structure and its goals is a personal failure on your part to seek that information, the information is out there.

          I recommend reading this article, from Vijay Prashad’s organisation the Tricontinental Institute. It will give you a good run down on China’s movement through stages of production and its current goals. If you want to argue Vijay Prashad and his organisation are not leftist you’ll have to take that up with Noam Chomsky as well since they work together on practically everything now.

          If reading is too much for you (I suspect it is or you wouldn’t hold this opinion) then here is a very brief video by Professor Richard Wolff where he cites China as responsible for the globally rising interest in marxism.

          If alternatively your position is that marxism is not leftist, you are a right wing clown and politically illiterate.

          • ReakDuck@lemmy.ml
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            I am not near left or right, a 1 line axis is not enough to put all the political positions into account.

            After reading the first link, socialism is kindof interesting at its core, but in china you have a person that controls eveything, China is a totalitarian state capitalist system. While Socialism would give people freedom, China is doing the opposite. I am not fully invested into this topic but you can’t tell me that stealing Money from bank accounts, allowing companies to do stupid investments that will become waste just to rise some numbers. Generally forbiding the fact that you have issues (disabled) or are different (religion or sexuality) is really just showing how similar this is to Hitlers time.

            In Germany we have the Bundestag and its neither leftist or rightist as you elect the group you like which can be left-ist or right-ist, a group of multiple groups will be build for the few years that have together 50%. So if there is onr far-right group or far-left one, they won’t be able to actually do all the harm except people elect that group 50%.

            Besides having every few years either same or slight different groups that regime, there is also the Grundgesetz which protect the Human rights at its core and is not changable except all 2 buildings and 1 person allow for this. With this, everthing should be possible while having freedom.

            But for China I really don’t know what is the right thing. Its no different than America with capitalism at many levels because both intoxicate the human rights and nature environment. Somethinf like a Bundestag for China doesn’t seem like a great idea if it would be the main thing, because China wants to grow and the Bundestag is too slow for direct and instant changes. But without, you can see corruption at many corners in China.

            • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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              I am not near left or right

              So you are ignorant. Its ok we have all been there. To live is to learn. I would have an essay very similar to yours a couple years ago. Then I started doing some reading.

              Essentially leftism v rightism boils down to either you think people all all equals and should be treated equally regardless or you believe some people are superior to others and should get to treat others as lesser. Its simple as that.

              • ReakDuck@lemmy.ml
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                If you say something is simple, then you are actually ignorant, literally. Its like saying: “There are only white and black people, simple as that.”

                Politics is way more complex and diverse, if you are only able to think in one direction then just don reply to me wtf.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum

                You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****

                • 🔻Sleepless One🔻@lemmygrad.ml
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                  Politics is way more complex and diverse, if you are only able to think in one direction then just don reply to me wtf.

                  unironically links political spectrum

                  Bruh

                • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  If you say something is simple, then you are actually ignorant,

                  I didn’t say all of politics is simple. I said right vs Left is simple. Its an classification system made for the sole purpose of making a complex thing simple.

                  Its like you are getting hostile at me for saying “using google translate is simple” and saying “Translation is super hard. Learning a new language takes years and even then the subtleties of idioms and the nuance of culture play a significant role in how people speak. bridging the gap between two languages is super complex”

                  You also said “Its ok” and included that “all” have been there but its only you and the bubble community you live in like you are some superior peace of ****

                  I’m sorry if my tone came off as condescending but is Understanding not superior to ignorance? Ignorance is a natural state. We naturally transition from ignorance into understanding on many subjects through out our lives. There is no shame in that. clinging to ignorance however is shameful. Realizing you are ignorant is the first step to understanding. The next step is finding more information. I was just trying to encourage you. No need to be so defensive.

              • ReakDuck@lemmy.ml
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                I guess you missed the point that one person has the decision to control everything, of course there will be different groups controlling the details, but this is the person who is able to change. Just saying that I should read is pretty much stupid to say, you also just could say nothing, the message would be equal.

                But i just gonna be you for a moment: If you do not believe this, you need to do a lot more reading.

                Just send me your articles or whatever to justify whatever you mean and don’t be a dick.

    • randint@lemm.ee
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      I know right! How come there are so, so many people defending China here? I thought they were the minority. Ugh. When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.

        • randint@lemm.ee
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          I’m fine with people with different opinions than my own posting. It’s just the number of such people surprises me.

          ps. I will not go back to reddit

          • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            You had it explained where they came from, and just ignored it so you could continue with your paranoid conspiracy theory.

            Why not go back to reddit? You’ll like it there, they also have the extreme solipsism to think anyone who disagrees with them is a paid foreigner

      • GarbageShoot [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        When I was back on Reddit comments like those would always be downvoted to hell.

        It might be worth keeping in mind that Reddit has, for several years now, biased its moderation policy against the sort of voices who would object to OP, creating a neoliberal echochamber across most of the website.

    • ElHexo [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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      Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it.

      Isn’t that too harsh? Not in the least.

      When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense.

      • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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        Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it.

        Scream it for the boomers that control their children, and liberals who love NATO at the back.

  • OceanSoap@lemmy.ml
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    Goddammit, I do NOT want us to be propping up a war in Ukraine and fighting an actual war with China.

  • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.net
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    Is this that stupid shit where their air defense zone covers a huge chunk of mainland China and they freak out every time China flies Chinese planes over China?

    • randint@lemm.ee
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      If you actually read the article,

      Of those aircraft, the ministry said 10 had either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait, which previously served as an unofficial barrier between the two sides, or entered the southwestern part of Taiwan’s air defence identification zone, or ADIZ.

      you would find that 10 aircrafts either crossed the median line of the Taiwan Strait or entered the southwestern part of the ADIZ. Neither of those is “flying over mainland China.”

        • randint@lemm.ee
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          It is, but it was clearly done to provoke Taiwan. Calling this a moot point is like saying that laughing at homeless people is fine because it is not illegal.

          • brain_in_a_box [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            If you consider China flying planes on its coastline to be unacceptable provocation, I’d love to know what you consider the USA sending ships half way around the world to that same coastline.

            • randint@lemm.ee
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              China did not just fly planes on its coastline. They crossed the median line, which is an unofficial line that has been dividing the Taiwan Strait for decades. Planes and vessels from China and those from Taiwan would not cross this line to show mutual respect. China is purposely breaking this unwritten convention. See how they usually just barely cross the median line, fly parallel to the line for a bit and head back? Neither are the planes passenger planes, they are fighter jets. This is different from the US sending ships through the Strait. Sending a military ship through the Strait is a provocation to China, but it is much weaker than the direct provocation of the fighter jets crossing the median line.

              • meth_dragon [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                you realize that the uptick in frequency of these ‘provocations’ only started in response to the pelosi visit? the incident that had a considerable portion of the entire chinese population howling for the cpc to shoot down the plane and engulf the world in nuclear fire? this is the cpc’s way of appeasing its very large and very rabid nationalist constituency (who are very disappointed that they have not died in a nuclear armageddon, btw) and it is a meme on the chinese internet that despite all of its rhetoric, this pathetic level of ‘not touching you’ fuckery is somehow the lowest that the cpc is willing to stoop to when faced with a de jure violation of its sovereignty.

                • Gucci_Minh [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  Broke: Don’t shoot down Pelosi because it would spark a war

                  Woke: Don’t shoot down Pelosi because it means she can go back to America and speed up their decline

  • AutoTL;DR@lemmings.worldB
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    This is the best summary I could come up with:


    Taiwan, which China claims as its territory, has repeatedly complained of Chinese military activity near it over the past three years, as Beijing steps up pressure to try to force the island to accept its sovereignty.

    Taiwan’s defence ministry said that starting at around 9 a.m. (0100 GMT), it detected a total of 25 Chinese aircraft engaging in operations out at sea, including J-10 and J-16 fighters, as well as H-6 bombers.

    The ADIZ is a broad area Taiwan monitors and patrols to give its forces more time to respond to threats, and Chinese aircraft have not entered territorial Taiwanese air space.

    China staged war games around Taiwan in April after President Tsai Ing-wen returned home from a visit to the United States where she met U.S. House Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

    Taiwan Vice President William Lai leaves for the United States this week on his way to Paraguay on what is officially only a transit but which has angered China.

    Taiwan’s democratically elected government rejects China’s sovereignty claim and says only the island’s people can decide their future.


    I’m a bot and I’m open source!

  • ThomasMuentzner [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    okay guys , so since this hole federation stuff your Pro Imperial Wrong Takes comes my way , it must be corrected …

    this is Taiwans Air Identification Zone it is a Bullshit leftover that spans so vast over china that it simply can not be not violated ,… theirby producing the most wonderfull “Permanent - Saturaton - Propaganda” of China Bad Bakround noise for the Imperial core audience in their Echo Chambers .

    PS: this is where real Journalist go in the west , when they start beeing critical of non approved subjects.

    “Good thing propaganda only ever happens to other people”

    • possibly a cat@lemmy.ml
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      I suspect the US has begun moving pawns in anticipation of withdrawing support for Taiwan in the still-distant future.

      There are many geopolitical steps that would need to occur first, most likely over the span of many years. But I think the US sees a different future now than it did 20 years ago, and I think they recognize that one day they will not be willing to pay the price that China will be ready to extract over Taiwan.

      The initial stage should look like overt fear-mongering, counterintuitively. Money and therefore emotions need to be mobilized in the US to put things into place so that the severance can go smoothly. An aggressive stance is presented as a masquerade of what is going on behind-the-scenes. But what is really happening is that Taiwan is being made redundant.

      What is Taiwan’s most strategic asset for its allies? Semiconductors. What has the US been pouring money into subsidizing this year? Semiconductors. I think TSMC is more likely to become irrelevant than bombed.

      Of course all it takes is one senior leader who drank too much of the koolade for theatre to become war.

      • Frank [he/him, he/him]@hexbear.net
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        withdrawing support for Taiwan in the still-distant future.

        They’re going to tip the Republic of China in to the ocean as soon as they’ve stolen all of TSCM’s productive capacity. That’s all this was ever about. They’re building chip fabs in Arizona right now. As soon as the US can produce it’s own Chips the RoC is… going to go right back to tense but peaceful relations with the mainland like they had before DC started waving it’s grand imperial [redacted] around.

  • ArxCyberwolf@lemmy.ca
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    Surprise surprise, Hexbear users came to brigade other instances exactly the way they said they would. Bad actors through and through.

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        They’re obviously not fascist, and you’d know that if you were being honest about it and bothered educating yourself both on what fascism is, and on the realities of the PRC.

        Also, it’s not “state capitalism”. They do use a market economy in addition to a planned economy, as part of the overall socialist economic system. It’s not a binary either-or; using a market economy doesn’t mean it’s capitalism, and planned economy (intervention) doesn’t mean it’s socialism. They’re structural terms, and relate to purpose: capitalism’s purpose is to maximally extract profit and concentrate wealth; socialism’s purpose is to better the lives (materially and culturally) of its people. China, as a socialist system, takes advantage of the benefits that a market economy can offer (efficiency, competition, resource allocation, demand and pricing signals) but doesn’t use it to extract and concentrate wealth: instead, it uses the net benefits of the market economy to benefit the people. Similarly, a purely planned economy can be very stable and fair but is prone to stagnation and slow progress. By using both systems simultaneously, taking the relative advantages of each, China is able to benefit from efficiency and stability. There’s also no pure free market economy: every capitalist economy has degrees of government intervention (another name for planned economy), especially in times of crises.

        • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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          Tell me this, does this supposed “socialist system” have workers owning the means of production? How are factory conditions again? Hell you can’t even particularly call them a social democracy, they don’t have complete universal healthcare like Europe yet, and they have less than half the paid leave! Socialist system with billionaires, LMFAO (I don’t care if the rules are stricter and they’re held more accountable, the fact they exist in the first place is pure capitalism).

          And I’m calling them fascist because of how they treat political dissidents and minorities.

  • rjs001@lemmygrad.ml
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    How can a country intrude into its own territory? These separatists need to be put in their places.

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      1 year ago

      So let me get this straight, a group of people overwhelmingly wish to separate, and the government tries to prevent them from doing that, and you don’t think that’s imperialism? I bet you don’t feel the same about separatism in Catalonia, Donbas, Kurdistan, or the Zapatistas. Classic tankie logic: imperialism good when done by purported “communists.”

      • rjs001@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 year ago

        Almost like the reason some of the population is because they stole from the Chinese people and fled to the island when the people fought back. The oppressor doesn’t deserve to get to pick to be independent

        • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          The Civil War was imperialism but it was good imperialism. Fascist breakaways are a bit different: the Union taking over the South was infringing on their self-governance, but that’s a good thing, Confederates were pure evil. It’s like after WWII and Axis powers became occupied, could you technically call that colonialism? Maybe, but they needed to be.

          If Taiwan was blatantly fascistic, genocidal, had slavery, etc. I would support China colonizing them… but they aren’t. They’re neoliberal (much like China), which is lame, but they’re not a Nazi state. Remind me, who was the first in Asia to legalize gay marriage?

          Your comparison is bad faith.

          • TheLepidopterists [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            If Taiwan was blatantly fascistic, genocidal, had slavery, etc. I would support China colonizing them… but they aren’t.

            Taiwan AKA the Republic of China was founded as a settler colonial military dictatorship

            • CatholicSocialist@lemmy.ml
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              1 year ago

              And are they a military dictatorship today? Even when they were, they weren’t a threat to world peace or humanity like the Confederacy or the Japanese Empire. By that logic do you think the US military should intervene in African military dictatorships?

    • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      As a french dude, and given our history, I have no choice but to stand against all imperialisms. Claiming a territory against the will of its people is exactly what imperialism is. France has done that for centuries along with most of the european powers of the time. Imperialism is criminal, it is murderous, and profoundly unjust. It is nothing less than colonisation. Just let people live on their own terms.

      • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        KMT, that originally fled and established Formosa, now says they want to reunite with China. The opposition is DPP, US puppet party that is squatting as “western neoliberal government”…

          • heartheartbreak [fae/faer]@hexbear.net
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            1 year ago

            The opposition is not “the people”. “The people” just want to live peaceful lives without having the US betting their empire on causing WW III in their backyard. In order to properly oppose imperialism, especially as a first worlder, you need to understand the class interests of monopoly capital and how the emergence of finance capital combining with the force and violence of the state is where imperialism comes from. China has never couped a sitting head of state in order to create a banana republic to enslave the populations and resources of another country. There’s valid criticisms to be made but ur shooting yourself in the dick if you’re criticizing without education on it.

            • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              Right, I am quite uneducated on China, I’m only speaking from experience discussing with people from Taiwan. I certainly don’t intend to wear a phallus cast

              • heartheartbreak [fae/faer]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                In my experiences talking with most non-right wing Taiwanese people is simply that they want peace and to not be used as a geopolitical pawn for imperialist motives. I think this is a fairly reasonable position and would hope for at least some form of peaceful rapprochement where some amount of autonomy can be established like in the other autonomous regions in China.

                The issue is that the current western hegemonic world order helmed by the US is seeking a point of conflict with China to prevent them from effectively disrupting the current status quo which you are probably aware of: imperialism, neocolonialism and unequal exchange. With capitalisms need to continually expand we see again it’s need for war in order to establish new markets. Its probably humanity’s number one priority to prevent the upcoming world crisis and as many emerging wars as possible (especially considering what that would do to climate change). Combatting the propaganda designed to manufacture consent for an upcoming war with China is the most important thing that a leftist can be doing in regards to geopolitics.

      • YearOfTheCommieDesktop [they/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        That literally only happened because the USSR and China would not and could not vote on it (respectively) because the UN was insisting that the KMT who only controlled taiwan were the legitimate representatives of china, and the USSR was boycotting the UN votes on principle.

        The point isn’t “UN is infallible” the point is “Even anti-communist countries in the UN agreed that PRC is the legitimate government of all of China.”

        • CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
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          Yes, the UN is an authority on what most nations once thought, if that’s all that’s being argued for. At one point there was an understanding that Taiwan is to be de facto independent and de jure a part of China. Now China is pushing back on the de facto independence a bit, and the US is pushing back on the de jure union with China a bit.

          The UN proper is not an authority on anything other than what clubhouse members publicly agree, and can’t otherwise be used as an argument from authority, which is how this came across.

    • randint@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Never, ever have I thought I’d see the words “台灣是中國神聖不可分割的一部分” in English being used unironically.

      • ☆ Yσɠƚԋσʂ ☆@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Last I checked liberals are all about respecting rules and international law, so we’re just holding you to your own standards here.