I’m Jewish and have been told very angrily that I killed Jesus more than once. It’s fun.
To MTG: you’re white and white people owned slaves, so you’re directly responsible for slavery.
I’d believe it for MTG. She certainly seems the type to want to return to “the old ways”.
It is perpetually disappointing the extent to which so many people who claim to be Christians fail to understand even the CliffsNotes version of the Gospel.
Jesus’ arrest was probably bound to happen sooner or later though. As noted Biblical scholar Andrew Zaltzman has often pointed out, Pontius Pilate was a law and order administrator, and Jesus was absolutely guilty under the law at the time.
Tbh, Jesus probably didnt exist anyways.
They started writing about him almost 100 years after his supposed death, and AFAIK theres zero proof outside the bible that he existed.
The earliest set of Pauline epistles have a consensus dating around 50, 20 years after the nominal death of Jesus.
The gospel of Mark has consensus dating to 70, 40 years after the nominal death of Jesus.
Multiple Jewish and Roman historians wrote about the existence of Jesus, who weren’t all getting their information from the Bible. There is a long and well-sourced Wikipedia article on this.
This is patently false and easily disprovable with a cursory google. Please do not spread misinformation.
Prove it instead of casting doubt.
You’re the wrong party here, your search will prove it.
Virtually all scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus was a historical figure, and the idea that Jesus was a mythical figure has been consistently rejected by the scholarly consensus as a fringe theory.
Scholars differ about the beliefs and teachings of Jesus as well as the accuracy of the biblical accounts, with only two events being supported by nearly universal scholarly consensus: Jesus was baptized and Jesus was crucified
So…
- A preacher lived around that time.
- His name was ridiculously common.
- He was baptized.
- He was crucified.
Notably NOT:
- He was born of a Virgin.
- He was the son of a supernatural deity.
- He performed supernatural acts.
- He was resurrected.
To call this “Historical Jesus” is misleading at best. It is reasonable to say DOZENS of people fit that description.
Let’s try the same argument today… “A preacher named John was baptized and later was convicted of serious crimes and sentenced by a judge.” How many fit this description? Isn’t it more likely true than false? What does that prove?
This whole argument tries to equate mundane statistics with miracles. It adds nothing to any reasonable discussion outside of post-hoc theological justification.
What makes a better lie:
- A 100% fabrication
- A lie that selects elements from reality, and invents parts of the whole story
Muhammad was also a known historical figure, as was Joseph Smith.
I don’t think anyone here claimed historical Jesus was the son of the magical sky wizard.
Some folk heros are based on historical people; some aren’t.
The thing is that people are basing the magical sky wizards manifesting himself as his son as this “Jesus” character they’ve made up and have decided existed in the way they pretend because there is some tangential corroboration somewhere.
I asked for you to provide some kind of proof.
You provided a statement that scholars have faith.
I am being serious here, where is the contemporary record of Jesus existing?
There isn’t any and even the discussions in the wiki on the historicity of jesus are full of arguments to authority.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus#cite_note-Jesus_existed-4
It can be summed up as, “People who have made their livelihood around a potentially fictitious persons of history all claim that said person exists because reasons.”
this conversation is split into so many parts im just trying to chase down this one key point: it’s not enough to say “well I don’t believe them” - I want to be proved wrong here, for my own education. But I want to be proved wrong - with proof. Not just a throwaway comment of “they have not met my (undefined, and unexplained) threshold of proof”
What do you have to show that Jesus didnt exist as a real human? That isn’t your own belief or thought process as your primary source?
However, Tacitus does not reveal the source of his information. There are several hypotheses as to what sources he may have used.
buddy, if scholars past and present piled opprobrium on Voltaire for doubting it’s authenticity, what hope do you have?
Not only does this link and the other link youve been given provide many historical sources and discussions, but they also then lead to other sources.
The burden of proof lies with you invalidating hundreds of sources over thousands of years. Don’t act like I’m the one with a crackpot theory.
Let’s compare like for like - what link with a reasonable amount of scholastic cachet can you provide to back up your theory?
It’s not a crackpot theory it’s just one that doesn’t hold up to the smell test.
A man mentions tangentially three things and history decides that’s enough corroboration.
He wasn’t alive at the time, he doesn’t mention what his source is and he is writing about something else.
Also, without Jesus’ arrest and crucifixion, he wouldn’t have died and been resurrected, saving everyone’s souls. So shouldn’t Marjorie be thanking Jews for that?
And when the flying spaghetti monster flew out of his butthole and pasta for our sins we were saved a second time. Making humans the most saved beings in this universe at least.
This. Why don’t these people understand that Jesus died for EVERYONE’S sins?
WE ALL KILLED JESUS. Accept Him and repent.You gotta be mentally ill to believe this shit.
I never killed anyone though. That’s just emotional manipulation.
What you don’t think you’re a sinner for… checks notes …being born?
Na
If Jesus died for our sins then we’re letting him die in vain by not sinning.
sin for Jesus friend.
I’m going to spill my seed for Christ.
I grew up in one church that loved to talk about “the synagogues of satan” and other “fun” stuff like that, so I don’t think anything like that is uncommon (particularly in Baptist circles, but probably also outside of it). Some of the kids I grew up with would say “that’s Jewish” for something uncool. Pretty sure there parents were full-on anti-Semitic white supremacists. This wasn’t even in the south. Glad to be out of that shithole.
I grew up in Indiana, not the south and yep, that’s how it was in Indiana too. I was just on the receiving end.
Although admittedly “that’s gay” was more common for something uncool, whereas if someone was trying to get you to lower a price on a sale, they were trying to “Jew you down.” Which is something I heard at a garage sale several times, so that was nice.
Although admittedly “that’s gay” was more common for something uncool, whereas if someone was trying to get you to lower a price on a sale, they were trying to “Jew you down.” Which is something I heard at a garage sale several times, so that was nice.
Holy shit, really? I always thought I lived in a shitty area for racism, but “Jew you down” was something that would get even someone’s racist old grandfather horrified looks here.
Welcome to Indiana in the 80s and 90s.
Southern Ontario checking in. We did that too. ‘Gyped’ and ‘indian giver’ were also things.
Although, I had an indigenous friend one summer who quickly became popular because he was very funny. He used to use slurs against all of the white kids all of the time. It was the most effective anti racist tactic I’ve ever witnessed. None of us were comfortable using a lot of the slurs that were baked into our culture, unless it was with our friend and a smile.To my shame, I also did ‘Gyped’ and ‘Indian giver.’ Now I don’t even use such words in a way that isn’t intended to be disparaging. I say ‘Roma’ and ‘indigenous American’ (or Canadian in your country’s case).
Exactly. All we can do is try to improve.
“Christians” have been systematically mis-interpreting their bible for centuries.
Here is the Complete Jewish Bible’s rendition of a particular phrase used in Revelations, which implies, clear as day, that “those who call themselves Christians, but are a temple of _________” is equally valid
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=call+themselves+jews&version=CJB
“Christians” read John, read that he called benJoseph :“rabbi”, repeatedly, read that benJoseph called biblical-legalists “Hypocrites!” repeatedly, and ?won’t? understand that John was criticizing the “Jews”, ( with falsifying-quotes, which hadn’t been invented yet ), and not Jews,
and instead of accepting that John was criticizing/attacking the false “Jews”, the biblical-legalists who contempted everything in Isaiah & legally convicted benJoseph to get rid of him,
…they went around murdering Jews ( the Catholic Inquisition was waging war against both women & Jews, ttbomk ).and had the gall to be doing it, in their words, “in the name of the king of Jews”.
Ideological-gymnastics, not proper reasoning, right?
IF the repeated-throughout-scripture claim that God/OceanOfAllAwakeSouls provides help at every change between Ages
( between Age of Taurus & Age of Aries was Moses,
between Age of Aries & Age of Pisces was benJoseph,
one might presume that benDavid would be now-ish,
& Metatron/Alpha+Omega would then be at the punctuation between the Age of Aquarius & the Age of Capricorn )
if that promised-help is true/real, then the false-Jews, false-Christians, false-Muslims, false-Buddhists, false-Hindus, etc, would be walking into a kind of trap: what they’re sowing, they’re going to be reaping, aka Karma, involuntarily & … rather-long-term, right?
My apologies to you for being accused by “Christians”, & others, who reject the actual-evidence available before their own eyes.
If it’s any consolation, the rabid on this world, who worship their-own-ideology/prejudice,
instead of what the various scriptures were alluding-to,
would seem to be the vast majority of the world’s population, which is going to be making the rest of this century turn into an ocean of attrition, on all sides.
Nobody’s going to be escaping the lesson.
Any remnant of humanity who survives, is going to be profoundly changed by the experience of what’s being set-up, these years.
_ /\ _
PS: I’m holding that real Jew is like Isaiah, with spirit-centered/anchored values,
& false “Jew” is like the biblical-legalists, or Netanyahu’s ilk, with other “values”…
& real Christian is like some Christian medical-missionaries who just go live somewhere & help, letting their religion show through their devoted life,
whereas the false “Christians” are the ones who “read” the bible, then attack “woke” ( benJoseph was the “wokest” guy in the New Testament ) “socialist” ( benJoseph provided free healthcare to anyone who’d spiritually-earned it, & gave free food to thousands, right? Socialist as can be ) progressives.
While mom tried making me Catholic, when I discovered that I’d earned some Soul-memories of previous-lives, that weren’t human lives, then all the Abrahamic religions were nuked, for me:
Empiricism’s the only religoin that MUST lead to one’s Soul, one’s “kingdom of GOD, within”, as benJoseph called it, one’s CellOfGod.
Either empiricism works, or all Universe is just an arbitrary rigged scam, obviously, right?
_ /\ _
If we assume Jesus was historically real - let me be clear that I don’t really care who was responsible for his death 2000 years ago. (which Christians believe was required for their own salvation anyhow).
I have never understood why anyone would hold modern Jews (or any Jews at all that weren’t present and involved) responsible for Jesus’ death.
Having said that, I have grown up believing it was more or less true that yes the Jews did kill Jesus. (But again, so what?)
This post spurred me to do some duck duck going. I found these two articles interesting. At least I can see the basis for it now. For anyone else coming at this with a similar understanding:
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/who-killed-jesus/
https://www.npr.org/2011/03/04/134264425/Pope-Jews-Are-Not-Responsible-For-Killing-Jesus
I will say that the first article does a pretty good job of setting up the case for why people believe that. (Unlike the second which kinda surprisingly acts like no one should ever have thought that in the first place.)
Again, even if every person involved in Jesus’ death had been Jewish, and even if Jesus were the actual earthly incarnation of God as his son, I have never seen any basis to lay this at the feet of modern Jews. But now I know more about it than I did.
Plus, it was the Romans that actually executed him.
Why don’t these people hate Italians?
It’s all fables.
Religion ruins everything.
I really do hate religion. Scourge against humanity.
