cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/2614140
Also a Ukrainian communist i know confirmed it’s true
I support any country’s right to not be conquered by capitalist, imperialist oligarchs whether I like their internal politics or not. I hate it when the US does it, so it would be hypocritical to not hate it when Russia does the same thing.
Yup, I was opposed to the U.S.'s imperialist war for oil in Iraq. Just like I oppose Russia’s imperialist war for oil in Ukraine.
Russia is looking for oil? LOL WTF
Eastern Ukraine has a lot of natural gas, actually. Plus Ukraine has a lot of pipelines for getting that natural gas into the rest of Europe. Technically not oil, but one of the main objectives of the war was absolutely about controlling Europe’s access to fossil fuels.
The shorter term goal is for Russian oligarchs to sell Europe gas via pipeline so their kids can get education in Europe.
Yup, my understanding is there is a lot of oil in Ukraine (I think donbas specifically but don’t quote me on that). And arguably more importantly, a major pipeline runs through Ukraine. My understanding is the EU is currently very reliant on Russian oil and they would very much like to not be. Hence, why Ukrainian membership to NATO is so attractive.
I think a lot of people in the West dismiss Putin as a nutjob, but I think there is a rational reason for controlling Ukraine. Oil is Russia’s largest export after all.
All of that isn’t meant to excuse Russia; it’s unethical to murder for oil. But it’s intellectually lazy to dismiss a rational actor (albeit an unethical actor) as crazy. But capitalism gonna capitalism. And until we put an end to capitalism, people are going to continue to murder for money.
Is Russia not the supplier of oil for Europe anyway? They are just rerouting it via India, knowing well they cannot have any alternative. I do not see the motive to “invade” Ukraine for “oil”. Russia is only fortifying Donbass as an independent state from Ukraine due to the horrors inflicted since 2014 US coup.
It’s really not hard to understand. Ukraine discovered huge gas deposits in Donbass, which threatened Muskovy’s ability to control the price like they wanted. There was no US coup, and the horrors inflicted have been from Muskovy.
muskovy
Slow down with the Russophobia. You sound 0% reasonable and 100% acceptable to brainwormed west libs.
I have no interest in sounding reasonable to redfash
I am hoping by “communists” you mean people who are aligned with marxism ideal, but not people supporting authoritarian capitalist regimes.
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Agreed, fuck “communists” who support the US and their line
Fuck communists.
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🤢🤮
I’m a Leftist who isn’t a Communist. There’s lots of room on the Left.
“USA Left” != “EU Left”
there are of course leftists like what you are thinking in the US but are a smaller or quieter group here due huge pushes the other way
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Oh nice a vatnik. I was expecting tankies here but no vatniks.
Leftist is quite wide of a political side no? Also I’m very sure many Ukrainians have enough bad memories from communism to want to ban it. If we ban nazism because it’s an ideology that caused the death of millions, we should also ban communism.
That’s a false equivalency. Genocide is core to Nazi ideology. And communism didn’t cause the death of millions any more than capitalism caused the deaths of millions. It gets pretty messy when you try and attribute unintentional deaths to an economic system. And frankly, kind of gross when you conflate unintentional deaths with the very deliberate and systematic execution of people.
https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/574eb599-dd4d-49cb-8991-780902d6865f.png
If we ban nazism because it’s an ideology that caused the death of millions, we should also ban communism.
This is soft holocaust denial. There was never a holocaust equivalent that communists did. For that matter there was never a genocide of the Americas that communist countries did.
I don’t usually jump in here but I’d disagree that the USA hasn’t genocided the indigenous peoples of this hemisphere
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They said communists didn’t commit a genocide, not that the US didn’t.
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What the US colonies did to natives could reasonably be described as a genocide, but it was very slow, and often fueled by apathy and self-centered, quiet bigotry. I think I read that 2/3rds of Native Americans were killed unintentionally by diseases that colonists brought over, right? Then the last third were killed off or moved slowly over hundreds of years, kind of like a death by a thousand cuts. Not even in the same league as the Holocaust. That was very intentional, organized, targeted, and fast.
However, to your point, the fact that Americans deny that a genocide happened here is very problematic. Maybe not as problematic as Holocaust denial, but not every atrocity has to be a competition. It was an awful, horrible thing that our ancestors did and we should acknowledge it. Pointing at something worse that also happened doesn’t make it better.
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I’m confused by what you’re saying.
You’re joking right?
Holodomor, anyone?
The holodomor was made into a genocide by hearst press, which was a nazi publication run by a nazi who literally met with Hitler to discuss pr strategy. When it first made its rounds in the US it became obvious that it was a fraudulent story. And now people are believing nazi propaganda that people in 1930s America (which was pretty supportive of nazism) saw through pretty quickly.
The famine was terrible, and there was incompetence abound, but after the soviet archives were unsealed even people like anti-communist historian Robert Conquest reversed their position on whether it was a genocide.
Comparing this to the murder of 11 million people that the nazis considered subhuman is disgusting.
USA has about 32 million murders under its belt, a lot higher than what Hitler did. Also remember how Hitler’s racial policies were inspired by USA, and how USA purposely hides its Native American genocide.
I’d like to see where you got that number of 32 million from, but for the sake of argument I’ll accept it. I don’t think it sounds completely unreasonable. That’s still centuries of killing being in the same order of magnitude as what the Nazi’s did in under a decade. The Nazi’s took everything the US does wrong and dialed it up to 11. That is worse. It is. The US has done more than it’s fair share of awful things. Yes, including genocide. It has never been as enthusiastic, brazen, or thorough about it as the Nazis were though. The Nazis were so evil even the United States looked at them and said that’s too much. Let’s not minimize what Nazis did just because they’re not currently in charge of any countries. We don’t want to go back to that.
Make a search about Hitler’s inspiration for racial policies. Within 5 seconds, you will see USA, and nothing else. USA is the worse one, considering the leftover Nazis flew to USA under Operation Paperclip, and some scattered across Europe.
Also,
What do you think I meant when I said “The Nazis took everything the US does wrong and dialed it up to 11.” I know all this. I’ve known all this for decades. You do not have to think the US is good to think there are things that are even worse. The world is not as simple as USA bad, therefore everything else not as bad.
Ok, gotcha. So the line at which the ideology is considered bad enough to be banned is below Holocaust, but above Holodomor. Nice to see it quantified
No, a party residing over a famine is not the line at which we should dismiss an ideology.
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Nazism is not banned in Ukraine though.Their national hero is a nazi who participated in the Holocaust.
It’s insane that Ukraine worships Bandera who was an actual Nazi while actually decent Ukrainian Revolutionaries like Makhno are forgotten.
