A difficult part of writing for me is when a single sentence–especially dialogue–contains two tones. It sounds best as a single sentence, but ending with a period, or alternative punctuation, looks wrong. As well as this, using two sentences also looks wrong.
I can’t think of a great example right now, but I know I’ve wanted punctuation that doesn’t exist before. I’ve had moments where it would have been so useful to have a “;!” and a “;?” mark.
I often see this accomplished with dashed interjections - dashes! can you believe that? - as a way to break up a sentence while still continuing with a single train of thought. But I always support the invention of new punctuation, how long has it been since we got any? We’re well overdue.
Is the interrobang not enough for you‽
¡I love the interrobang! But I feel like we need more than just that. ⸘Would it not be fantastic to know the tone of a sentence from the beginning‽
Also, I believe what OP is looking for is something like this image. Sadly, I can’t find a keyboard with them, or a copy/pastable line where they’ve been typed.
Would also be useful mixed with the interrobang. The backwards question mark “⸮” is also often used for rhetorical questions. But it’s sometimes replaced with ❓because it’s easier to type on a phone. ❗Is sometimes used for sarcastic enthusiasm, too, instead of the “official” sarcmark with is apparently copywrited and difficult to parse because it’s all swirly and weird, whereas the big red ❗ or ❓ is way more obviously out of place and meant to be noticed, like sarcasm or a rhetorical question.
I can’t find a keyboard with them, or a copy/pastable line where they’ve been typed
Maybe use combining diacritical marks?
I’m using 0x326 (Combining Comma Below), but you may need the CGJ in there to render correctly in all contexts
e.g.
Foo!̦ Bar?̦
Edit: Combining grapheme joiner, not zero width joiner
I’m not techy enough to know if that’s something I can do on my android or not. Lol. I never use the laptop for anything other than school.
Ah yeah I don’t know how I would do that easily on a phone. Do those in my example above render for you? You should probably be able to just copy/paste them on a phone if they do.
This is English good sir or madam as the case may be. If you want pre-sentence punctuation you’ll have to switch to Spanish or similar. Thank you.
¡Be the change you want to see in the language! We owe ourselves that much, ¿do we not?
I always enjoy a good interrobang before bed
We’re both talking about the same thing right?
Writing is as much a form of stylistic expression as any other medium.
¿Perhaps something like this:
?Out of all the additions to punctuation I’ve seen this is the one I find myself needing most often. Interrobangs are easily written as “?!” and even most other ones can be quick fixed with storytelling like “said lovingly”, “said with authority” and whatnot.
But “Is that the best, or is it just what we have?” is an absolutely horrible thing to write punctuation for when you mean it as two connected questions like “Is that the best? Or is it just what we have?”
It should obviously be replaced with a question comma. There are so many cases where you also have the question in the middle of the sentence such as “Is that okay (question comma) because I don’t think so…”
I’ve thought the same thing many times. I love interrobang (not least of which for it’s kickass name), but the same sentiment can be expressed in other ways. Dialogue can convey the others, but if you want to recreate the way humans actually speak English, you need a mid sentence punctuation, like a comma, that can express questioning. Even in speech, we change our intonation to be higher when questioning, and we do that sometimes in the middle of a sentence. It’s just not conveyable perfectly with our current set of symbols.
Exactly this. If you know what a semicolon and question mark/exclamation point’s purpose is, then you know how this punctuation works. The best tool is that which requires no manual at all. Occam’s Razor, or something along those lines.
¡It’s immediately, perfectly understandable! :k
I’ve occasionally seen the exclamation mark put inside of parentheses. I interpret it as the writer saying to the reader, “are you seeing this shit?”
Anyway, not sure if that’s what you’re going for here.
I’m only going for a semicolon with tonality. Overall, super simple and straightforward. It uses already existing marks with already established meaning, and provides a useful way to transcribe dialogue.
Why does this not exist;? Something so damned simple!
Edit: It’s not related to (!) or (?). I know, since I quite literally just used these a moment ago somewhere else. It is a little similar, but it’s different.
So, for the record, these things come into existence in the first place simply because someone, somewhere, starts using them. Language is something that drifts over time, and punctuation is no exception.
It’s a bit harder to do this digitally though since the glyphs aren’t just marks on paper.
Why does this not exist;? Something so damned simple!
You don’t really need to link these clauses together, it sounds clunky. A question should probably be independent the vast majority of the time, and when it isn’t it should come last.
Like this: Something so damned simple; why does it not exist? I think it sounds way better and is easier to read. If you need to describe the tone, that could be a sentence that comes before or after. It’s easier to do this in dialogue than in thoughts, but still doable either way.
I think what you’re proposing is unnecessary when you could just rewrite it to flow better. I can guarantee you that there’s probably a better way to structure your sentence than simply inserting a new form of punctuation.
IIRC “something so damned simple” is a fragment or dependent clause, unless “[it is]” was somehow implied, in which case an em dash may be more appropriate. A simple comma might also suffice, since the clause modifies “this” from the next phrase.
You’re correct, I think you could use an em dash to better effect if you wanted to keep the original order. You could also use a semicolon or even just leave it as a sentence fragment as a stylistic choice. There are many, many ways that someone could structure a sentence.
I think in any situation in which a new type of punctuation seems sensible you would be better served by rewriting the passage instead, but conceptually I’d be interested in seeing a new punctuation mark gain popularity just to see what it would be used for. The idea itself isn’t a bad one.
Agreed, the virtue of a living language is change. I don’t always agree with the change but over time it makes language more expressive. A recent example is the word aesthetic used as a standalone adjective, as in “that’s so aesthetic.” While it strikes me as painfully meaningless — which aesthetic? — it’s common enough now to have been widely adopted as a general marketing term. That’s become an accepted use of the word, and so be it. I’d welcome the ability to more easily indicate tonal shift inside sentences, the way we do verbally. Just need it to become popularized enough.
I suggest using a ternary operator. At least 10% of Lemmy users will understand this syntax.
noooo pls don’t DRY tun-state-desiccate language with terse-nary cleverness
Please, I’m confused enough about what people younger than 30 are trying to say.
Probably in programming communities ? people will understand : people won’t understand
Elvis operator better
🕺
I don’t really understand what you mean, do you have examples of how you would use it? Or a scenario where you would need it
I’m actually also quite curious
I actually just started working on a post, and wouldn’t you believe it!
“And that’s great;! But nobody’s as weird as I am.”
The first half is intended to be an exclamation, but the rest of the sentence is spoken neutrally. It can’t be split into two as leading a sentence with “but” is bad practice. It just doesn’t look right any way.
Ah, if only we had a line above a comma…
I have been posting examples under other comments
Kinda like this sentence?; because it starts off as a question, but I explain it afterwards with a statement.
“The older I grow, the less important the comma becomes. Let the reader catch his own breath.”
- Elizabeth Clarkson ZwartThey are already invented: 😱 and 😱😱😱
What we really need is a format option for backwards italics (sartalics) instead of a stupid proprietary font.
Because English needs to be more complex
are you envisioning it as a lighter exlamation, question ??
It’s just an exclamation or question mark combined with the purpose of a semicolon; Not quite ending a sentence, but also changing the tone midway through. It’s situational, but I’d absolutely find it useful.
ok I think I get it. seems as valid as using double question marks or exclamation marks which is kinda common.
Italics
Have you tried handwriting italics? It’s not fun.
That’s when you underline.
And if you’re using software that doesn’t support formatting?
You just said you were handwriting.
Emphasis isn’t always possible with every utility, but a simple Unicode addition would work well for a variety of software, as well as be easy and readable on paper compared to underlines (especially if there’re words below). It’s also more accessible if you can’t draw straight lines to save your life. Like me.
Switch from block letters to cursive, or vice versa. Or all capitals. Anything that shows a difference.
Does this cover what you’re asking for, I hope it does?!
I use these often, but it doesn’t solve a sentence being split into two distinct tones. A “!?” mark is useful for when you’re effectively shouting a question, but it’s not the instance I’m referring to.
I daresay this would be a revolutionary addition to grammar;! What say you?
Is a new mark necessary? Just taking out the semicolon does exactly what you want.
Hell, the semicolon was pretty much invented because someone thought “What if I want a compound sentence, but can’t decide on a conjunction to put between them?”
How often does anybody use THOSE? (In English, C++ doesn’t count)
No, semicolons are not for compound sentences; they’re for something else.
The sentence doesn’t have emphasis unless I use italics, which isn’t always convenient, or sometimes even possible (writing, software with no formatting).
Also, I use semicolons–and double hyphens, for that matter–quite frequently. I love using them.
So, you just like putting wacky symbols in your writing despite grammar?
Just start writing all your posts in l33t speak!
533m5 11k3 7h47 m19h7 83 219h7 up y0u2 4113y!
1337 5k111z 820.
I didn’t choose the HaX0r life, the HaX0r life chose me. 🤷🏻♂️
Ok
