I’m an ex incel myself, but I’ve been seeing a few users here exhibiting the tell tale signs. “I’m not attractive enough”, “I don’t socialize correctly”, “I’ll never find a woman” - all extremely unhealthy attitudes.

Personally I burned through many friendships and ruined a lot of chances with women because I was in the incel community. The community warped my view of women so much that I made it even harder to meet women, I became my own worst enemy. I lost friends because all I could think of was how horrible it was that they had girlfriends.

I have a friend who helped me out of it. She was the one who started calling out my bad behavior for what it was, and I started on the long uphill path out of it. I’m now married and stable for well over a decade, but I still think back to those days, and it depresses me seeing other people causing this themselves and not being aware of it.

So, Lemmy, for those who have clawed out of it, what’s your story?

  • aldalire@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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    Taking martial arts classes (specifically for me, Brazilian jiu jitsu). Coincidentally i met my current girlfriend there, but you shouldn’t expect to meet women there. Rather, it’s a way to stop thinking about women for two hours. I realized that back then my mind was constantly thinking non-stop if i’m attractive to women, what women like, how i can get one, etc. It’s those thought loops that make interaction so painful.

    Literally anything that can get your mind off of women. Hot take; I wouldn’t advise going to a gym though, because still then you’re thinking about how to become more attractive by becoming fit. The goal is to work out to take your mind off things. Martial arts is perfect for this: you physically work out, and your mind is focused on your opponent.

    • andyburke@fedia.io
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      5 months ago

      Yo, just want to say: good on you and good advice. I think you nail the problem with the constant thoughts thing, and that also explains why so many people will talk about how they met someone after they “stopped looking”.

      • RedditWanderer@lemmy.world
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        The bird will never land on your ship if you constantly stand guard to catch it; instead improve your ship and sail into warmer waters, the bird will land while you are not looking.

        -cgp grey

    • Nate Cox@programming.dev
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      I am not a current or ex incel—I came from the front page out of curiosity—but I feel the need to weigh in on this.

      I have a black belt in a mixed martial art, I’ve been active in it for many years as a student and as a teacher, and I strongly feel that martial arts can offer a positive improvement to just about every person.

      I joined martial arts because I was severely depressed going through a divorce and custody battle; I was going from work to the bar and then home. My life felt meaningless and I very literally woke up one day and realized that if I didn’t change something I was going to kill myself. I joined a local dojo that day.

      Martial arts is special. It certainly gives you a place to vent out some frustrations in a safe, productive way… but if you find yourself a good dojo it can be so much more.

      Martial arts boosted my confidence massively; it made me feel better about myself and who I am by giving me regular positive interactions with many other people. Belts are earned from hard work, and the experience of being handed that next rank provides a measurable improvement to guide you.

      Eventually you start to be the upper belt and get to guide newer people through the same benefits you’ve seen, which feels great. If you go as far as me you may get to stand in front of the class as an expert and feel the healthy respect of a group of people, earned through dedication and the relationships you have formed with them.

      Martial arts made me a better person, and better man, a better father, and helped me live a more well rounded and happy life.

      Normally I end this little rant there, but if you are an incel and you are looking to get out I will add one more benefit: women go to class too, and if you want positive role model women to help break you out of a cycle of negativity I can think of no better example than an upper-belt woman who you can interact with in a structured environment. Most people in a dojo are pretty chill and happy to help, they also tend to have high confidence in the upper ranks and aren’t looking to prove anything anymore. It’s a pretty fantastic way to form new friendships that will challenge everything the incel community has convinced you is true.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Not a martial artist here, but I would think the fact that everyone is in a basic uniform in many martial arts also makes it less intimidating for someone with body image issues who feels them especially strongly in front of women. No one is dressed attractively or provocatively in the sort of outfits people wear when doing martial arts. They’re not designed to look sexy. They’re a pretty good gender equalizer in terms of appearance.

    • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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      I’ve never been an incel but I’ve always sympathised because I feel like I easily could have become one. Seeing a therapist and learning the basics of Cognitive Bias Therapy is what I attribute to helping me out of a lot of those ‘thought loops’.

      It’s nice hearing stories about people who’ve escaped it.

    • unn@lemmy.ca
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      5 months ago

      You should strength your muscles before doing martial arts anyway

      • GBU_28@lemm.ee
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        You do not need to pre train to join a martial arts gym as a rookie/white belt

          • SlippiHUD@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Your muscles can get hurt working out too, you just gotta learn to preform in your own capabilities, or you were hurt by an asshole.

          • workerONE@lemmy.world
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            Probably went too hard too soon, and you didn’t have time to get used to the activity- it takes months for your body to get significantly stronger. I tore my bicep tendon, I believe I just wasn’t ready for the level of exertion. Similarly I would recommend warming up each session and starting with low effort / low exertion movements.

          • GBU_28@lemm.ee
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            5 months ago

            What’s wrong with your muscles hurting?

            Or do you.mean an actual injury…

            When I trained TKD I would still get DOMS from intense training, even as a black belt. Obviously faster recovery than when I was a rookie, but muscles “hurting” is ok

  • Signtist@lemm.ee
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    I was never full-on incel, but I was definitely headed down that path. I was a late-20’s fat guy with severe acne all over my upper body, and I’d obviously never had a girlfriend. I looked ahead in life and just saw it going further and further downhill. I tried dieting, working out, etc, but none of my attempts at making a change ever lasted.

    One day I saw a facebook post that one of my old highschool classmates had gotten married. The guy looked a lot like me, and at first I was mad - I had that classic incel thought of “why is he successful and not me?” But after sitting in that dark place for awhile, I realized that the answer to that question is that I can be successful! I realized that I’d never tried to put myself out there because I always viewed myself as not being worthy - I needed to be fitter, more attractive, better at talking to people, etc - but did I really? I wanted to find out, so I made an online dating account, cleaned myself up, got a friend to take some nice pictures of me doing things I enjoyed, and put myself out there.

    I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about. It took a while, and I missed a lot of opportunities by being awkward, but eventually I got good enough at holding a conversation to secure a few dates, and in only a few months of that, I found the woman who is now my wife!

    I’m still fat, but having someone to look good for was at least enough for me to shower more regularly, which cleared up a lot of my acne. I’m still pretty awkward, but so is my wife, and we both find it endearing. Life’s not perfect - there are still issues - but I’m no longer looking ahead at my life and seeing only downhill trajectory; I have a sense of optimism I didn’t have before, and it mostly came from me accepting myself. I’m not sure if other incels are the same as I was - not realizing that the one they actually hate is themselves - but I hope that if they are, they eventually come to the same realization that I did: that they are worthy.

    • CosmicTurtle0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      5 months ago

      In my very limited experience, the one characteristic that seems pretty universal to incels is the inability to have casual, no pressure small talk with anyone, especially with those of the opposite gender (or whatever gender you like).

      Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.

      • DontTakeMySky@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        It seems like incels, or at least Tate-holes, treat every conversation as a challenge with the reward being sex.

        Just be friends with people. Who fucking cares if you end up in a romantic relationship, allow yourself to form close intimate friendships that aren’t physical.

          • DontTakeMySky@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Oh you didn’t hear about the pricing update… Sex costs 15 now, but you can redeem 6 for a hug if you ask nicely.

          • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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            Any sexual relationship will rely on a foundation of some amount of friendship. A human connection, if you will. There’s a reason the terms are “fuckbuddy” and “friends with benefits” and not just “sex toy”

            If you want a sex toy just go buy a sex toy from the shop

              • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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                Realistically, in order to hook up you need the social skills that come from forming and maintaining human connections in order to not immediately make your perspective partner run for the hills the moment you open your mouth. Sure one might be able to get lucky in spite of a lack of any social experience, but that’s about as likely as winning it big in lottery

              • adhocfungus@midwest.social
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                5 months ago

                Mine weren’t either. Unbearably miserable for everyone until they got divorced, then it was just regular miserable. Would not recommend.

          • psycotica0@lemmy.ca
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            5 months ago

            Can’t tell if trolling, quipping, or honestly asking…

            I feel like some people who don’t want friends are often people with low self esteem who have decided their hypothetical future friends will abandon them, or not like them, or whatever, and so they convince themselves that they “don’t want that anyway” as a way of protecting themselves from future pain or embarrassment. In those cases, dating aside, the person should work on their self esteem.

            If it’s not that, one could try casual hookup apps. These rely on a certain amount of work, and there’s no guarantee, especially if one lives in a less populated area, but it’s possible.

            And the third option for someone who doesn’t want anything social and just wants sex, is sex work. This is exactly what it can be for! The only trouble is that in most places it’s illegal, which pushes it underground, making it both difficult to find and potentially dangerous… but this is the niche it’s meant to occupy.

            But honestly… at least consider that it may be the first case, and see if you can search your feelings to figure out “why”.

      • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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        Small talk is a skill like anything else. It must be practiced and honed. The easiest way to do this is just by being interested in what the person is saying. You don’t have to be funny or quippy. Just be curious about their life and you’ll find that most of small talk is just being able to go back and forth about a topic.

        Key here is that anyone can do small talk. You have to have ZERO knowledge about the subject matter. You can just ask questions. Anyone interested in a topic will usually be happy to answer them. This works on anything from sports to cooking to blacksmithing topics. The wonderful thing you find out is: PEOPLE ARE INTERESTING!

        Admit your ignorance on the subject and have them walk through explanations. Engage in the conversation by connecting it to any tangential knowledge you have on the subject.

        “Ocean kayaking? I’ve never done that. That sounds exhilarating. The closest thing I’ve ever done to that was a canoe on a river when I was 12. I’m sure its different but how different is it?”

        “How did you get into that hobby?”

        “Where in the world have you done it?”

        “Any close calls?”

        “How important is the right gear/boat?”

        “Where would you like to do that in the future?”

        See? Zero knowledge about ocean kayaking, but infinite conversation that the other person is engaged with you in. Congratulations you’re small talking!

        • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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          The tips here for small conversation here are spot on. Most people want to talk about themselves and stuff they enjoy, I know I do (but I’m also aware not everything I want to say is what people want to listen to, I love history but it’s rare for me to find “openings” to share some of it and people often try to change topics soon after). Give them a bit of room and, if it’s something you really want to know more about, ask further.

        • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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          Key here is that anyone can do small talk. You have to have ZERO knowledge about the subject matter. You can just ask questions. Anyone interested in a topic will usually be happy to answer them

          Fucking hell. I needed that. I’ve somehow never put that all together by this point

      • naught101@lemmy.world
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        The best advice I’ve heard along those lines is: “It’s more important to be interested than interesting

        Ironically, I reckon the more interested you are in people and things, the more interesting you become, because you learn and gain a more diverse understanding of the world, and then you are able to interact with more depth with more people.

      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        It is also okay not to be good a “small talk”. I quite frankly hate it and for the most part i tend to overwhelm people in conversations. Now i am happily married and we still sometimes end up just talking all night, because we engage in conversations we both find meaningful.

        Weirdly enough and quite annoyingly now that i am married and built some confidence, a lot of women are hitting on me, and seemingly unfazed by me stating the fact that i am married. Had to cut out a few people from my life because of that.

    • thetreesaysbark@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      Just another thing. Working out, not to look good but to build some muscle (whether it’s seen or not), makes a great improvement in the bedroom!

    • jjjalljs@ttrpg.network
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      I made a goal for myself to never start a conversation with “Hey” or something similar - I went through every profile I found and picked something specific to talk about.

      This is a good strategy. It’s surprising how many people (of all genders) match on dating apps and think “hey” is a strong opener.

      Also surprising is how many people think a longer message they send to every match (eg: “what do you think defines art?”) is a good move.

      Asking people about their profile stuff is the way to go. People like talking about themselves. People are (hopefully) putting things on their profile their way to talk about.

      • Emerald@lemmy.world
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        what do you think defines art?

        Ah yes, always begin conversations with a philosophy lesson

  • flamingo_pinyata@sopuli.xyz
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    I don’t know if this counts since I was never the women hating type, but for a long time I suffered because I couldn’t figure out a way to have a girlfriend.

    How I dealt with it? Understanding myself, mechanisms of social pressure, and the wrong motives I had for wanting to have a girlfriend.

    It was always about proving something to others, rather than actually finding a life partner. Everyone around me constantly pestered me to find a gf, friends, family … All the media celebrates certain kinds of romantic relationships. I thought I’m worthless if I don’t do it as well.

    Changing that mindset transformed me - I don’t have to put myself in situations I’m uncomfortable with, and I don’t have to pursue types of relationships defined by others.

  • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
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    I got asked out by a girl in high school I barely knew after feeling unlovable for most of my teens. I became fast friends with her female friends and it kinda helped me realize that women are just people.

    Later I broke up with her but stayed friends with everyone. Eventually I started dating one of her other friends, and we’re still together 6 years later. Taught me that being friends with someone should probably come before a relationship, and the best way to get girl friends is to just hang around them and do normal friend stuff.

    Later I found out that the only reason I got asked out in the first place was because of a coin flip. If I lost that 50/50 I might still be an incel weirdo. Weird to think about.

    • Scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techOP
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      Having good female friends can absolutely make a huge difference. I thought women were these nebulous things that I didn’t know how to talk to. Turns out they’re the exact same. There are some that like sports, there are others that like nerdy things. You can’t just put people into boxes and say “you are a woman so you are like X”. They’re just like men, with different traits, and you can be best friends with women even if there is no intention to ever sleep with them.

      Hell some of my best friends were women, and after they uturned me about being an incel they started going to bat to help me out. “Hey we invited ____ along, we talked you up to them!”

    • flubba86@lemmy.world
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      The coin flip, chance concept is something I’ve dealt with too. I was fast going down the incel path in my mid 20s. One of my managers at work was given two tickets to a speed dating event, his mother told him he “needs to find a girlfriend” so she can “be a grandmother”. He didn’t want to go, we were talking to him about how awful a speed dating event would turn out to be.

      He said he would go if one of his friends came with him to the event too. He called so many of his friends, most were already in a relationship, or were busy that day, the rest rejected the invitation. Then he started asking workmates at work, similar situation. Eventually he approached me, he knew I was single, knew I didn’t have social life, knew I never spoke to women, he said it would be a good opportunity for me to put myself out there. My first inclination was to say “no way”, “absolutely not”, I’m not attractive and a bit autistic, I don’t make a good first impression to anyone. The thought of awkwardly making small talk for 5 minutes at a time with 12 different women who were judging me based on first impressions, was the absolute opposite of my idea of a good time.

      Then I thought about it as a chance to help my colleague, he wasn’t going to go unless I went with him, I wanted him to go, he wanted me to go, plus it was at a new bar that I’d heard good things about. At the very least I’d get to have some drinks with my work friend.

      The event was about as awkward and anxiety inducing as I expected for the most part. Most women were much older than me, and clearly had zero interest in chatting to me. So I took the pressure off myself, I wasn’t there to find a girlfriend, I didn’t buy the ticket, I was there to support my friend. There were two women around my own age, who were not bad looking and I actually managed to hold a conversation with (the beers helped). At the end of the event you could write down the name of anyone you felt a connection with and the organisers would find mutual matches.

      Next day I find out I matched with one of the women I’d indicated. I got her contact details, and started talking to her via emails and SMS for a few months, getting to know each other better. Again I didn’t put any pressure on myself, I didn’t know this person, I didn’t ask her to match with me, it was a “easy come, easy go” situation with zero stakes. After two months we eventually went on a real date, and turns out we were a great match. Two years later we were engaged. Today is our 10th wedding anniversary, and we have two kids.

      After we started dating I found out that she only went to the speed dating event as a support person to her friend. She didn’t go in looking for a relationship either.

      That got me thinking about the odds of this happening. If my colleague didn’t get given tickets from his mother, if any of his other friends weren’t busy and went with him instead, if I didn’t agree to go along with him, if she didn’t go along with her friend for support, if I didn’t write down her name at the end, if she didn’t write down my name. The mind boggles. She told me it was a 50/50 whether she wrote down my name, just like you mentioned.

      When people say dating is a “numbers game”, that doesn’t need to be interpreted in a predatory or creepy way. I think this is what it is about, the chances of finding a connection with someone really is a chance, but the one thing you can do is find a way to make that chance non-zero.

    • Avid Amoeba@lemmy.ca
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      • Women are just people
      • It’s alright to be just friends with women
      • Women are friends with other women

      These are the cheat codes for having all the right attitudes and environment to find a person who wants to be more than friends. I think a lot of the other ways to get out of it would emerge from applying these.

      Note that the more people realize the first, the less valid the last becomes. The fact that many of our societies are sexist create this artificial division where women hang out mostly with women and men with men, and we see each other as different. As someone who grew up in a post-communist Eastern European country, I gotta say, living in a society where women have men friends and men have women friends from an early age was absolutely spectacular. And it just breeds opportunities for developing social skills and romantic relationships. Often friends stay friends after the romance is over.

    • SorteKanin@feddit.dk
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      Taught me that being friends with someone should probably come before a relationship

      This has been my experience too. My wife is my wife but she is also my best friend.

    • naught101@lemmy.world
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      She wouldn’t have done it on the outcome of a coinflip if she wasn’t at least partly interested.

      • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
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        She had a crush on two guys, I was one of them lol. The coin flip was to determine who to ask out. You’re right though!

  • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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    I don’t think I was ever an incel, but back in 2011-12, I was being “red-pilled” on facebook. Goshdarned wimminz, they ruined everything!

    The first thing I want to say is how fucking ashamed I am to have fallen for that shit back then and I’m really fucking glad I managed to get out soon-ish. Perhaps ironically, what kept my sanity intact was that I was a very common target of “real men” because the FB groups would often attack the political left and communism with some of the stupidest takes I’ve seen in my life, like “Every failed African country is communist” or “Nazism was left leaning, it’s National SOCIALISM!!!” - Younger me would see that shit, get pissed and write how wrong that was, which has led me to being banned from 2 groups back then.

    Now, how did I even end up there in the first place? Well, as nearly everyone else, I suppose, it felt like I wasn’t getting what “the world” had promised me, a cis white man: a woman. I’m not bad looking, but my manners and social skill were caveman level for the most part, I rarely, if ever, thought about others, I just made rude remarks left and right because “haha fuck you”. Of course, back then, I was deluded and saw myself as a gentleman, that disconnect between my own perception and reality (aka how others saw me) no doubt played a huge part in me feeling that I was wronged, that I wasn’t getting any because of some fault within the system instead of myself. Once you’re in this mindset, seeing posts that blame women for your problems make a lot of sense. It’s not that I’m rude and deluded, it’s women that are too picky, it’s women that have terrible taste and go for “obviously low quality males”, it’s women that just want a man they can easily manipulate, etc etc.

    As I always fancied myself as left leaning politically, anything that was more political than “personal”, like posts about women in the workforce (women should receive less because they’ll ALWAYS get pregnant!), I’d just ignore and think they were stretching things a bit.


    SOOO, I got out of that. My recommendation for anyone that wants to get out of that mindset, the first thing I tell you is: stop fucking following and taking in ANY such incel content. Literally block everything that can remind you of that shit. That’s step one. You don’t need that in your life, you don’t need to feel like you’re in that specific group of losers. There are many better groups of “losers” to be part of

    Second, reassess yourself and compare how you view yourself vs reality, how others look at you. In a 10 second interaction with a random person on the street, what would they likely think of you? Any answer that is too extreme on the positive or negative means you’re very likely deluded as I was with myself.

    Third, and perhaps most important, when it comes to having any relationship, amorous or not, is: what makes you interesting? “Nothing”? Then you better work on something, anything. Just because you’re into nerd shit doesn’t mean you have to be a nerd shit. I love anime, I love videogames, boardgames, tabletop RPGs, but I never undersell them as nerd shit, I always prop those things as these amazing hobbies I want to SHARE with others, and I’m always 100% ok with people that don’t like them or don’t want to try them (the latter mostly because of all the bad rep thanks to toxic nerd shits)

    Adding to the “what makes you interesting”, expand your horizons a bit. Try something new and different, look for any group activities that are cheap or free near your job or your home. You are not the things you like, the things you like are part of what makes you you. You change, your tastes change, you grow up, don’t think current you is too precious to change.

    • Scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techOP
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      Thank you for your honesty and your story. I can agree that’s one of the ways I got into it, I viewed myself as a catch and women had been conditioned to not want me, such a good person. The whole thing too, it’s their fault for not realizing that it should be a good person instead of a hot person.

      Of course it never crossed my mind back then that they were with good people, and maybe I wasn’t as great as I thought I was. I’m still pudgy and I still am bit too sarcastic, but that doesn’t matter, my horrid views on women and myself did enough damage back then.

      Also all great advice. “Nice” isn’t a personality. Nice is the bare minimum. You need to be a person, hobbies and geeky things are great. My wife and I started chatting because I talked about music I liked and lord of the rings lore. You are expected to be nice, it’s a personality trait, one part of your personality.

    • TSG_Asmodeus (he, him)@lemmy.world
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      First, I just wanted to say I am very proud of you. This is all tough to admit, and I really hope you share your story more. The fact you got yourself out is huge, and could really change things for others suffering from incel-dom.

      Second, “You are not the things you like, the things you like are part of what makes you you. You change, your tastes change, you grow up, don’t think current you is too precious to change.” is a pretty great line.

      • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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        5 months ago

        Thanks. I can’t even say that my life was shit back then, I always had a comfortable lower middle class environment, but due to a number of less than ideal family interactions and lack of self awareness (or maybe, just a lack of general maturity), I ended up in that hole. Calling women bitches and every other type of misogynistic name felt like a relief, that I was getting back at who wronged me. Again, when you’re in that kind of deluded mindset, it makes sense. I got a girlfriend around 3 years after leaving those groups and I told her about this dark time I had, and I’m grateful that she could see from my actions that I wasn’t that piece of shit anymore, she barely even believed that I ever got there.

        I understand that not everyone will get out by themselves, some people will need external help, but anyone that feels like that something doesn’t feel quite right in one specific post or another, there’s hope they might get out of that. Like I said, the main thing that drove me away was that their general, ass-sourced toxicity turned against me because I was a stinky commie, but there were other stinky commies that ate that up and preferred to keep seeing women as inferior.

        On that line, the last part is what I felt a lot about myself, I often feared that I would “change too much” or that I “wouldn’t be myself” anymore, completely ignoring that I was already different from whatever I was 4 years before that, which was also different from 4 years prior, and so on. Small epiphanies that helped me make sense of myself.

        • TSG_Asmodeus (he, him)@lemmy.world
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          5 months ago

          Hey I just wanted to say I think this is a beautiful post, and I’m sorry I somehow checked it off without seeing it. Thank you so much for sharing this, I hope it helps someone going through what you were.

    • peopleproblems@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Hmmm.

      I never fell into the whole “the system is against me” idea, but I do struggle with self confidence.

      But you have a point there. If they are interesting to me, maybe I should share them more and ignore the inner voice of my ex cutting me down. Recently a friend told me “look, you aren’t an incel in the slightest, but your look gives off incel vibes.” It hurt, but she was right. I just needed to dress like I care a little. which isn’t that hard.

      It’s not like I really consider myself a nerd. I like painting minis way more than the game. I’m not great at video games, I just really enjoy the stories you can tell. I love science and history, and get way excited about things. I like hitting a golf ball and enjoy watching baseball.

      Maybe you opened my eyes to a better me just now. Maybe it’s more I need to find joy in the things I like, rather than just doing them.

      I’ll never be a professional painter. But the things I paint look cool. I’ll never get into the PGA, but a birdie is always a brag.

      If I like me, others can like me too maybe.

      • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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        5 months ago

        I like painting minis way more than the game. I’m not great at video games, I just really enjoy the stories you can tell.

        Miniature painting is an amazing hobby to show people, everyone always gets amazed because “it’s so small! How do you do it?” - even if your painting skills are subpar, simply being able to do anything is already enough to amaze anyone outside the hobby

        For videogames, I personally love anything that can be cooperative and/or chaotic. For story focused games, talking about the characters tends to be what gets people more interested in participating, much like fans of any movie or show enjoy talking about them. As proof: Tali Zora is the best girl in Mass Effect, Picard is the best Star Trek captain because he’s pragmatic.

        Humans naturally love gossip! The key difference that can lead to interesting chats is asking people who “don’t like games”: “if you could control character ABC from the show, what would you do different?”, that’s usually what makes them understand why games with a story can be so interesting to play

        Maybe you opened my eyes to a better me just now. Maybe it’s more I need to find joy in the things I like, rather than just doing them. (…) If I like me, others can like me too.

        Understanding and being able to explain why you like your stuff can certainly help, as you can then properly share with others why you like it, you understand the value of your skill and indeed, when you know your value, it’s easier to like yourself. I really hope all these insights help you figure your own self 😊 (and anyone else that might be reading)

  • IzzyScissor@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I used to be an incel, but probably not in the way you’d think. I mean it in the original use of the term, that is, I was a queer kid in a small town and there was not a single person in town I was attracted to who was also attracted to me.

    I moved to a big city, and things got a bit better but I still had issues in meeting new people with meaningful connections. I expected to just stumble upon the perfect partner that loved me exactly as I was, even though I hated myself.

    It wasn’t until someone basically slapped me in the face with the question, “Well, would you want to date YOU?” that it started to make sense. I was spending so much time looking for “the perfect partner” that I forgot to work on myself to become the perfect partner FOR that perfect partner. Once I stopped “looking” for them and instead started working on making myself a better person that things started falling into place.

    The only person you have to live with your entire life is yourself, so make sure you love yourself first and people will be attracted to that. No one wants to be with someone who hates themselves and everyone around them.

    • thirteene@lemmy.world
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      Well stated. I had a blind date with a partner that was perfect on paper and overnight realized I did not present the way I wanted needed to for that opportunity. I immediately started dieting. After I got into the healthy BMI range I immediately noticed that people started treating me differently and I had significantly more opportunities. It’s hard to accept that the problem might be you, but that’s the path out.

  • Emmie@lemm.ee
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    5 months ago

    I took estrogen.
    I was like fuck them they are so pretty 😭 Now I am pretty yay

      • Emmie@lemm.ee
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        No but seriously I was kinda incel once. I barely can remember that time but it involved lots of substances, clubs and things that were supposed to make you manly. Other people enjoyed them, me? I only wanted these things to make me more manly. I thought it can be learned or acquired with enough cigarettes, beer and calling people names and doing stupid ‘acts of masculinity’. I mistook antisocial for masculine I think in this pursuit.
        When I felt empathy? again at 27 years old it was amazing. Like a blind person who has seen colours first time since losing them at the young age.

        It’s truly amazing that we are capable of caring and this deep connection as humans and I don’t think there’s anything more worthwhile.

    • Allero@lemmy.today
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      5 months ago

      I feel that “I’m not pretty” stuff too!

      But wary of taking estrogen and going with transitioning for social reasons and also because I kinda want to remain sexually active and keep a solid dick lol

      So, crossdressing and some makeup it is!

      • Emmie@lemm.ee
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        I’d kill myself sooner than see myself in the mirror as an old man one day. It’s pretty easy indicator. Old woman - yeah whatever could be nice, old man - no fucking way brr

        And social things, yeah well this is admittedly something that is problematic but I am a firm believer that if you are confident enough, you can get away with just about anything.

        I am just me, Emmie, hello. Nothing less or more and the rest anyone can make up in their heads as they see fit. Not my business

        • Allero@lemmy.today
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          5 months ago

          Cool!

          In any case, I admire your bravery and the firm dedication to be yourself. I wish you the best of luck!

  • PappyWappy@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Lucked out and made (and still have) a great friend who’d always call out my bullshit and also talk through what was wrong with my mindset and thoughts. God, I was insufferable

  • anon6789@lemmy.world
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    I don’t know if I’d have considered myself an incel, but there’s definite cringe behavior in my past that would at least fall under incel behavior.

    Thinking about it now, I was just too focused on being what I thought would make me attractive to someone, mostly based on listening to other guys or media, and not actually getting to know the people I wanted to date and finding out what they wanted.

    I saw the people I liked more as a goal to reach in some gamified system, rather than as just another person who wanted to meet someone nice. Just not a lot of empathy going on. You can’t just grind to an ideal character build and have some formula say, ok you’ve met the requirements, here is your achievement trophy.

    I’ll assume you want an actual partner, and not just a fling, so it’s going to be platonic one on one time that’s going to get you closer to your goals. The “friend zone” is not a trap. The “friend zone” is a power up. You’re spending time with someone you like. That’s a win. Even if you aren’t dating them, you’ve managed to find someone who wants to spend time with you and get to know you. It’s getting you interacting better with other people and hopefully understanding and accommodating them better, not you just being self centered. It’s making you a more interesting and rounded person. That guy is the real thing the right person will eventually want to date.

    You trying to date that particular person probably wouldn’t work out, and being their friend is still a positive thing to your life. It’s someone to commiserate with, to get to know your actions around a girl you can have mutual respect for, to learn what girls you like really care about and want to see in a relationship. She doesn’t owe you love for you time. You owe her respect for her time, and she will give that back to you. It’s the same as a guy friend. It’s another member for your party. That’s a strength, not a loss.

    Spend time with women without there being an ulterior motive, and you will learn a lot. For me, I liked strong willed, assertive women, and well… that lead me to get to know a lot of women that had no interest in men in that way, so it eliminated the whole dating part of the equation, and that took a lot of the pressure off there for trying to “win them over” in that regard, and to just learn women are people just like me, with the some wants, needs, confusion about dating, and all that.

    I ended up also finally talking to my doctor about depression, and that was the life altering experience that really made everything fall into place. My shit behavior, past and present at the time, was all my fault, but it turns out I had some things really stacked against me with my ability to cope and develop emotionally, that once I got that fixed, was a huge burden lifted from me.

    Once that was dealt with, I was in a whole new world and all relationships became much easier to understand. Guys and girls became all of a sudden much more relatable and understandable, and I was able to process other people’s wants and needs instead of just my own, and it had taken too much of my resources just to make myself a barely functional person.

    I became able to learn empathy and that helped me become someone people were interested in knowing and loving, in friendship or in dating. It helps build and maintain good relationships. I can better know what I want, and how to better understand someone else’s wants.

    I feel the incel/nice guy behavior is largely just people with underlying emotional issues they haven’t figured out. You’ve got to realize other people won’t complete you or can’t be that missing piece. That’s something you’ve got to figure out first. If that’s getting meds to give you an even playing field, going to therapy, are just having someone you’re accountable to to fix your shit behavior, ego, or selfishness, do what it takes to address it. Everything else is you making excuses, and until you fix that roadblock in yourself to building those deeper relationships, you’re never going to have success.

    I look back, and regret so much of my life now, but what’s done is done, and I can at least know I never want to act anywhere near that cringe again! But I can recognize it now, and stop it dead. I too just try to share my story when asked, and I hope to help save them some of that embarrassment and regret.

    • Scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techOP
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      5 months ago

      Thank you for opening up, I feel like your story (while I know is very personal to you), is one of many that many men feel, but are too nervous to confront. I think you hit the nail on the head. A relationship in the moment feels like the thing you need, but what you’re actually needing is to feel content with yourself first. Once you work on yourself everything else falls into place.

      But you have to want to want that change, the world won’t do it for you

      • anon6789@lemmy.world
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        Much like anything else, having that strong foundation of physical, emotional, and spiritual health within yourself is going to make adding outside relationships much easier.

        It’s not like you have to be anywhere near perfect; you just needs to know your strengths and limitations. Having a personal handicap in common with someone can be a bond, or having complementary quirks can sometimes strengthen things for both of you if you are healthy about it. Like someone that knows they spend too much but has poor impulse control and someone that is too restrictive and needs some to say it’s ok to reward yourself occasionally.

        We all just want happiness, and we think getting a girl, a fancy house/car, a pet, a child, whatever it is will fill that hole inside. But the problem is within, and that is where the solution needs to come from.

        When you rely on someone outside to complete you, you end up being that person that’s drowning, and your struggle ends up taking your would-be rescuer down with you instead. Other people don’t deserve suffering to try to fix you. Some may try, but that is seldom very successful, and you’ll often just hurt those you care about. I’ve lost many friends and girlfriends that way.

        I think it’s important to talk about these things, especially with other men. I grew up around selfish parents and never got to spend much time with people my own age, learning how to interact, and looking out only for me was a survival instinct. I felt it was weak to rely on others, to get help, to feel sad, etc. It was all really self destructive things, and I still have to fight constantly with myself trying to break free of it and enjoy my life. It makes it therapeutic to talk about it whenever it comes up, because it shows me in a good way my situation wasn’t unique and others are in the same position. We can help each other get through it, and I’m not the type to pull the ladder up behind me and leave you to your own fate.

        As I said, I will never shake all the shitty things inside to people I cared about, and I can’t fix most of those broken bonds of trust, but I can talk myself through my emotional scars with you all, and hopefully help you do less damage to yourselves. Trying to prevent some of this from repeating to someone else is about the only way to make up to myself for things I’ve done.

        • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
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          When you rely on someone outside to complete you, you end up being that person that’s drowning, and your struggle ends up taking your would-be rescuer down with you instead. Other people don’t deserve suffering to try to fix you.

          But isn’t the most effective way to prevent others from being harmed due to your own issues to simply isolate yourself from people who would potentially care? You cannot harm anyone but yourself if there is no one to see you struggling and trying to help.

          None of your friends could possibly be hurt if you had zero friends.

          • anon6789@lemmy.world
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            I’ve gone through periods of time like that, but I don’t feel it’s necessarily the healthiest way to go. If you want to be isolated and dwell in depression, that’s absolutely a choice. I always felt better though spending time with either my brother or my one lifelong friend when things got that bad. I don’t think humans are meant to be totally alone for long.

            Additionally, if you’re looking to improve your situation, being alone where it was just me and my self-destructive thoughts wasn’t the most productive environment. Ideally, you would be continuing to learn to be better around those people. Keeping isolated is just going to keep you comfortable alienating people.

  • Trainguyrom@reddthat.com
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    5 months ago

    I fell down an incel-adjacent rabbithole when I was a teenager and young adult and while I was physically isolated (lived with my parents in the suburbs but my parents hadn’t bothered to teach me to drive, so getting around was a royal pain in the butt. Realistically I could’ve done more but youth truly is wasted on the young) I then for “reasons” socially isolated myself by avoiding online communities where i could have met people. I had really bad acne that brought my self-esteem to zero (in hindsight the acne was about the 5th least attractive thing about me at that time) and was struggling to complete a college degree in the wrong field while also failing to work enough to be able to afford to move out (again, hindsight 20/20 I had things I could have done but didn’t)

    Because I didn’t interact with anyone outside of my household, my social skills never grew and probably deteriorated. I was depressed and felt trapped, I believed myself to be “too autistic” to do things that could help, and it was all around a pretty unhappy time in my life.

    I happened to meet my now-wife on an online dating site, and we’ve both reflected and determined we were both in similarly bad but different places at that time. She had gained a bunch of weight (I seem to have a wider attractive range for weight than most people so this wasn’t a problem for me) and was moving on from her nth abusive boyfriend. Honestly my lack of social skills at the time made it so there were times where I flat out said something incredibly hurtful without realizing it. She’s since told me that she put up with that because “at least I wasn’t physically abusive” (single dudes, the bar you need to meet is so, so low)

    Anyways we both have since grown a lot as people and have both grown into fairly functioning adults. We both have more to grow (we both really need to get our respective executive dysfunctions under control), and sometimes we’ve grown apart, but we’ve kept growing back together.

  • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social
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    5 months ago

    I’m too old to be an incel™; I was going through it back when the term incel was coined as a neutral descriptor. I’d like to think that I wouldn’t have gone down that rabbit hole, because critical thinking comes very naturally to me, and the idea that it was women’s fault didn’t ever quite sit right with me. Women aren’t a monolith; they don’t get together and scheme. But if the incel phenomenon had been around, well, who knows? The camaraderie and validation of a group is incredibly beguiling.

    Anyway, I was dealing with depression, which brought along a lot of other problems that caused me to be deeply angry and unsatisfied with life. One thing that really woke me up, oddly, was the song Toledo by Dan Bern. Specifically, the lyrics, “Maybe all the things you thought you got coming to you / Ain’t coming to you / Not in this life / And maybe all of the promises you thought were broken / Were never really made” In short, where was I getting the idea that life was fair, or that the universe owed me, well, anything? Not quite out of my posterior, because many cultural messages tell you that. But those messages are wrong.

    So I decided to make the best of what life gives me, work on my own issues, and to have fun and do interesting things solo. And wouldn’t you know it, a year later…

    …I was still single. What, do you buy into that trash about how you find “the one” when you stop looking? I’m still single years and years later. BUT! That’s okay, because “giving up looking” isn’t some fancy, new way of low-key actually-looking. The benefit has been being more satisfied with life, and doing fun and interesting things.

  • Nindelofocho@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Honestly, I touched grass and made some good good friends. I matured and realized incel shit wasent very cash money. I wasent full incel but I was definitely on the path. I worked on myself a lot and really grew into just enjoying my hobbies. I learned that I wasent mature enough for a relationship and didn’t respect myself enough. I still have a lot to learn and will continue to learn and grow. Currently im in a nice relationship and around good friends

    • Allero@lemmy.today
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      5 months ago

      Mind if I ask you more? What was the nature of crime? How do you feel it changed you? It’s very rare nowadays to see stories of people who feel prison actually helped them becoming better people, and I’d love to know more.

      Of course, only if you feel like talking about it; if not, this is alright!

  • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    We didn’t have the term incel when I was a young adult, but at 25 I had an experience that allowed me to realize I wasn’t too far off from my peers, and decided to brute force my way to learning to socialize. My therapist suggested hunting down the local recovery community (which meant going to AA groups even though I wasn’t an alcoholic) which got me to CoDependents Anonymous.

    As a note CoDA and SLAA (Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous) are full of people glad to fall off the wagon, which is a major plot point in Choke by Chuck Palahniuk. Before I got too involved, a very nice person yanked me from CoDA into the local kink community, who were the advanced class of consent, limits and boundaries training. This isn’t to say they’re perfect at it, but they get more into the nitty, especially those who engage in edge play. (Not to be confused with knife play, though there’s some intersection.)

    That said, I became sexually active at 26, which is pretty late in the game, but a far leap from world records. Sir Isaac Newton died sexless and was obnoxious and proud of the fact. Incels often have nothing on the mathematics sector.

    < rant >

    The current state of how we regard our teens remains an issue to me, and at one point while Microsoft was fantasizing on how to get Cortana to fend off unwanted advances (Google’s LLM would just ignore them and turn a come-on into a web-search), I was thinking of how a simulated girlfriend might teach incels how to engage others without scaring them off through trial and error and sheer practice. But now we have scary data-stealing e-girlfriends that prey on the lonely.

    Then with the rise of abstinence-only education, the alt-right and the eagerness of the Republican party to keep their War Boys ( witness me! ) as a voting bloc and recruitment pool for their militant wing, I realized US society doesn’t have a strong interest in making things better for our newly-sex-starved teens since, as George Orwell observed, sexual frustration + three minutes of hate turns into a powerful tool for fascism-style civil wrangling, at least of the lumpinproletariat (the people who can’t civics very well). Kids developing a healthy sexuality doesn’t serve to turn the population into devout workers / soldiers glad to serve the ownership class.

    It also may be that we just don’t like our own teens, and want to evict them (which might be a hunter-gatherer means to stir the gene pool. Gorillas do a similar thing) and the thinking ape actually sucks a thinking past some of our presupposed values like dominance hierarchy. Hence we worship athletes and fear smart, less physical guys will turn into supervillains, and this informs our incapacity to do anything about schoolyard bullying, or workplace bullying, or gunboat diplomacy.

    So, when it comes to my fellow incels, I’ll borrow from Red Dragon (The Harris novel and two movies)

    I couldn’t help feeling sorry for him. He wasn’t born a monster; he was made one through years of abuse.

    < /rant >