For example, I’m using Debian, and I think we could learn a thing or two from Mint about how to make it “friendlier” for new users. I often see Mint recommended to new users, but rarely Debian, which has a goal to be “the universal operating system”.
I also think we could learn website design from… looks at notes …everyone else.
All distros, or none: flatpak has to improve in regards to launching an app from terminal. Following is a joke:
flatpak run com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
Why can’t the installation create aliases like
flatpak run jellyfin-media-player
? And then highlight conflicts during?Ask the devs. I haven’t bothered asking so far. There’s fp https://github.com/DLopezJr/fp but I don’t like workaround if it’s easily fixed upstream and it’s not like they wouldn’t know that it’s bullshit. Maybe they can’t decide upon a solution. Or are waiting for another important and relevant update.
It would also be nice if it could alias to the normal command, for example, LibreOffice with CLI commands like lowriter or localc.
Did you know you can evoke LibreOffice from the terminal to convert one file format to another? It can do what Pandoc does, but also works on old .doc files. Flatpak’s weird CLI behavior makes it difficult to use though.
It’d be dangerous if an installed app claimed to be something like sudo or bash. Even if a mechanism was created for flatpak apps to claim a single shell command, there is no centralized authority on all flatpak apps to vet them. If there was for flathub, and each uploaded package was checked, that still leaves every other non-flathub flatpak repo which must implement the same vetting. Because there’s no way to guarantee to do it safely, and because flatpak devs are unwilling to compromise, this is just what we get.
However in the same way, compromised flatpak app can also put a malicious .desktop file in
~/.share/applications
, which also allows execution of arbitrary command, even outside of the flatpak sandbox.User home permission is just incredibly dangerous on linux, I think we need special permission to explicitly allow access to these folders in home. Fortunately more and more app starts to support portal, which makes them much more secure.
Although, I do wish portal would have a access per session vs access forever option. For now if you open a folder through portal, the app was granted r/w permission to that folder forever.
This is extremely simple to fix with scripts that can be automatically created on install time. Here is a quick script I just wrote. It will search for first matching app and run it. Just save the script as flatrun, give it executable bit and put it into $PATH. Run it as like this:
flatrun freetube
#!/usr/bin/env bash # flatrun e # flatrun freetube if [ "${#}" -eq 0 ]; then flatpak list --app --columns=name,application else app="$( flatpak list --app --columns=name,application | grep -i -F "${@}" | awk -F'\t' '{print $2}' )" if [ -z "${app}" ]; then flatpak list --app --columns=name,application elif [[ "$(echo "${app}" | wc -l)" -gt 1 ]]; then echo "${app}" else flatpak run "${app}" fi fi
Edit: Just updated the script to output the list of matching apps, if it matches more than one.
Yes and I did a similar script but “just create a script” is a really bad solution.
Apps should need to declare a shortname and flatpak should have a shortcut for those with a separated command like flatrun.
I personally don’t think that creating a script is a bad solution. The entire Linux eco system is based around composable components (especially when we talk about terminal commands). Most of the Flatpak applications are available through GUI menus (.desktop files) and that’s the focus of Flatpak. And I think it’s a design decision not to expose every application as a separate program in the $PATH by default. This way there is less of a chance to collide with anything random on the system, if they have the same name.
Having said this, I still agree it would be beneficial for most users if there was a way to automatically create scripts in a special
bin
folder, that is available in the $PATH. The problem is, what application name should it have? What about different versions of the same program? The entire Flatpak concept was not designed for this, so creating a script for your personal use is not a bad solution.Repeating, apps should need to declare a shortname. I think my script currently has no mechanism for detecting duplicates
flatpak run com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
You can use
/var/lib/flatpak/exports/bin/com.github.iwalton3.jellyfin-media-player
instead. and then create aliases or symlinks (for example in ~/bin/) for that.
Every distro could learn from Arch Wiki
Even Arch Linux could learn from the Arch Wiki.
The Debian Wiki would actually like a word.
There is stuff in there that’s not found anywhere else. For example while researching driverless printing recently I found a huge page on the Debian Wiki but the Arch wiki only has a paragraph saying supporting printers should be detected automatically.
The Debian wiki is awsome. But it’s less noob friendly than Arch wiki.
The web UI looks like an old forum from 2000. Don’t get me wrong, a well written manpage style webpage is way better than an eye candy bloated scripted webpage (IMO) and I really like how detailed the Debian wiki is. But in today’s “mental standards”, the Debian wiki is not attractive enough for most new comer.
Also, It seems the Debian wiki is not as indexed as Arch wiki on the web.
Finally… I can’t access their wiki with my VPN ! :/.
But I do agree, The Debian wiki is a gold mine !!!
Can you send that one? I’m actually researching driverless printing right now
Who made the Arch Wiki? Was it done by the community? Genuine question.
Yup.
Fedora’s installer is abysmal. There’s a number of installers it could learn from. They’re working on one at the moment, so I hope it’s good.
Enabling access to proprietary software should also install audio/video codecs. Or at least have a separate checkbox for it, like (I believe) Ubuntu has.
Fedora’s installer is abysmal.
I thought so too. It doesn’t have enough options for power users and too many for newcomers. It caters to a middleground that barely exists.
Enabling access to proprietary software should also install audio/video codecs.
The codecs are also the #1 thing that annoy me in Fedora. Because of shitty US patent laws the rest of the world has to suffer.
Fortunately many flatpak browser now comes with codecs, like ungoogled chromium and librewolf.
Why won’t they just use Calamares?
The installer is the single one reason I can’t switch to fedora. I have several drives in my machine and I like to separate them, but their installer scares the shit out of me. I can pull it off for sure, but I just don’t want to take the risk
Fedora, NixOS and Void need a proper wiki like Arch
Most distros could also learn from Arch and create something similar to the AUR. Nix is going in the right direction.
And I guess almost all distros could learn from Artix and Devuan and reconsider if systemd is the right choice.
honestly I wished the arch wiki turned into a distro agnostic wiki. i have been using debian for decades and use arch wiki all the time but it would be nice to have a one stop shop for linux documentation. the Wikipedia of Linux run as a coalition.
Seconded. NixOS’s documentation has consistently been the worst I’ve read, always forcing me to go to the source code to try and understand what in the world is happening. It makes quick changes to new things nigh impossible. I had to resort to taking notes when I understood things about nix in order to retain the knowledge or at least link to where I could easily regain it.
The nixos wiki was marginally better and https://nixlang.wiki/ has been better. However the latter is less known so has less content. All in all, nix documentation is still bad.
Anti Commercial AI thingy
NixOS has the best concept and even pioneered it, but whether its implementation and documentation is perfect is a topic for debate.
However, it’s been quite long since I had to fiddle with my config and as such, the downsides don’t really affect one on a daily basis. In fact, I recently reinstalled my machine to change the root filesystem and it was an absolute breeze. If not for secure boot, it would have been absolutely trivial, and with secure boot it was easy and convenient.
As such, I consider the pains an investment into system that runs much better down the road. Though I’d love it if these pains were reduced.
Most distros could also learn from Arch and create something similar to the AUR.
i’ve seen Void’s
xbps-src
tool compared to the AUR multiple times in /r/voidlinux (and i guess it’s like a decentralized AUR?? you can build+install pkgs from source using the package manager, sure, but there’s no one big diy xbps packages registry like aur.archlinux.org for Void) and while i don’t really see it, if you follow that train of thought, void’s pretty set in the “right direction” :DThe Debian Wiki is so much better than the Arch one.
This has to be bait.
It is not
Absolutely not
I think more distros should have an easy way to set up disk level encryption in the installation
And know how to use an existing btrfs partition. And always [at least have an option to] show exactly what the automatic installer is going to do before I run anything. There’s gotta be a middle ground between “we’ll just surprise you” and “here, do everything yourself”.
OpenSUSE has a guided setup if you dont want a surprise or don’t know what manual setups requires. then prior to starting givea you a summary of what will be done.
Great, there we go, sounds like all distros should learn from OpenSUSE.
Each one has good parts, but I think openSUSE did a lot to make things easier for new users to linux
- Install, you see software summary, you can click and alter what patterns or packages you want included.
- auto snapshots when you enter package manager or admin tools, easy rollback with snapper or boot list
- a GTK front for all of YAST2-GUI components. All system, network, firewall, service, packages, boot and kernel config are available as GUI dialogs (as well as many others)
The Debian website is trash and I’m glad to see it acknowledged. People always take criticism of the website as if folks are saying it looks ugly. No. The layout is just icky.
It’s difficult to find where to even download the thing, particularly if you’re looking for older versions
YES! YES! This is exactly what I’m talking about.
Definitely still has that directory web page feel surprised there isn’t a visitor counter at the bottom
I love the look of the Debian website.
I don’t have a problem with the look, just the organization.
Just installed Debian today. Jesus the site/wiki is ugly
What’s wrong with it?
I mean… Gestures vaguely
What do you mean, I’m a web dev and that looks completely normal.
Its missing tons of images, CSS and unnecessary frameworks. So no, it is not normal
Sorry if my irony wasn’t too obvious. It certainly is not supposed to look that way. There are a lot of pages all over the internet that function just as garbage as this, especially on mobile. That’s why I meant it looks “normal” as in not out of the ordinary.
For me it’s mostly that the site sprawls in unintuitive ways. It’s possible to have a simple look while being easy to navigate, for example (and this is subjective, but still) https://www.openbsd.org/
I miss when this style of website was more popular for software projects. There are plenty of projects with modern websites that still manage to do it well, but there’s just something about the instant familiarity that comes with that type of layout.
I know what you mean, I remember when debians website was like this: https://web.archive.org/web/20021122032757/http://www.debian.org/
Is it just a generation thing, or is it objectively easiler to navigate?
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile but yeah the site does look weird and amateur
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile
I don’t think it’s good to hand-wave a website’s poor user experience and instead blame the user’s device. The fact of the matter is that Debian’s website is not as responsive as it could (imo, should) be and results in a bad user experience. With mobile traffic being responsible for over 55% of the internet’s traffic, it can be generally assumed a user’s first experience learning about a distro will be on a mobile device. If that first impression is bad, that can spell bad news for that distro’s adoption/onboarding.
Yeah, just curl it into aplay like the rest of us, jeez
No excuse for websites that render poorly on mobile nowadays.
You probably shouldn’t be accessing a linux distro’s website from mobile
Well how else am I going to access it, I borked my computer mid-install :P
Looks fine to me.
I do not recall other distros failing to update due to GPG key issues but it has happened to me on Arch distros many times. It is the biggest pain when converting from something like Manjaro to something like EndeavourOS as well.
I really do not understand why this cannot be fixed.
Alpine & OpenBSD with CLI installers, minimalism, lack of bloat and strong KISS philosophies, they remind me of what Arch Linux used to be – I don’t want any crapware if possible (dbus, systemd, polkit, logind etc). Just nice and simple.
The only one I have installed is dbus, unless you want to manually patch it out it’s pretty much everywhere (Gentoo is nice for this).
Maybe you would like Void or Chimera
I’ve used Void over half a decade or so, runit is nice, but I think I like the Alpine ecosystem more, plus Void has some oddities to me.
For instance, in the repositories no forks of big projects like Librewolf instead of Firefox, no crytos like Monero, also xbps has both caps and non caps for naming for projects, it’s nice to not have to use caps to install things. I know you can get around most of this with stuff like flatpak :)
I tried Chimera and liked it but again Alpine has a larger ecosystem, it’s more established in that respect both from containers and router/server use.
I’m also pretty used to Alpine’s quirks at this point, I’ve run it a quite a lot on my laptop with a funky DIY ZFS install and also run-from-RAM quite a lot on USBs. Having a stable branch is nice too, although I never really had many problems on Void either!
I switched my daily driver to Linux Mint Debian Edition recently and it definitely does combine the best of both. It’s easy to use and coming from plain debian has everything that I’m used to. Been loving it so far.
If you want Debian but user-friendly, just use Mint, Debian is easy enough to install. It’s like asking Gentoo or Arch to drop a easy installer, it would break the point of using it.
Gentoo and Arch do have easy installers (Arch via the Arch install script, Gentoo… Well, they provide stage 3 already built, a genkernel option, and even binary distribution now, which greatly simplifies the process)
Arch install is not official and it’s not that stable, and what’s the point of using Gentoo if you don’t use the main reason to use it ?
Honestly, that one had me scratching my head too, I doubt I’d ever use the precompiled binaries on Gentoo myself
The stage 3 tarballs and genkernel, though, make an install that could take a week or more down to a few hours; having successfully built a system from a stage 1 with customized kernel, that’s not an experience I feel a burning desire to go through again
having successfully built a system from a stage 1 with customized kernel, that’s not an experience I feel a burning desire to go through again
It’s a way to do, and yes it’s not made for everyone. Currently im using vanilla Arch but i understand how great source installed Gentoo is
Would it detract from Debian if it had an installer which was more intuitive to new users? As long as they don’t remove the options to configure, I see no harm, only benefits. To me, the thing about Debian is that it’s a community. If a distro wants to be elitistic, sure, that’s up to them, but I don’t see Debian having that goal.
There’s already an gui installer on Debian, what do you want ? The system to install himself without asking for your preferences ?
I don’t know. It’s difficult for me to answer because I’m so used to the Debian installer. But, for some reason the general opinion is that it’s difficult for many compared to some other distros.
More difficult because Debian rely more on the terminal than mint. The terminal is not a accessorie like on Windows, it’s part of basics Linux uses. In my opinion it’s important to learn how to be familiar with
I think text based interfaces is a strength of unix-like systems, valuable tools to be used when the situation calls for it. It might be a lot to ask of new users to be familiar with terminals before they have even installed the system though. If Mint can get the same result with a GUI, I see no reason why Debian can’t offer that option too, and let users discover bash and TUI when they have a working system.
When you’re beginner it’s normal to not be familiar with terminal, that’s why i recommend Mint as a first distro. What im saying is that We already have Mint as a beginner-friendly distro, we don’t need Debian to be as simple as Mint, also they included non-free firmware in their iso it’s pretty enough imo.
Slackware - if it ain’t broken don’t fix it. Gentoo - USE flags. Mint - user-friendly.
Slackware needs to learn how to be hip like arch. I’m the baby in our irc group, and I’m 40. All the cool kids are using arch BTW.
Slackware is broken, though.
- Its releases are so far apart that the default installer stops working in between releases cause it can’t handle the changes to the repos.
- Its default software selection is outdated, makes no sense (multiple tools for the same task), and is grouped illogically. If I want to run Xfce, I shouldn’t have to install the KDE group to satisfy necessary dependencies. If I install the base group, all dependencies for using the package manager should be satisified. And Libreoffice shouldn’t be installable only via an unofficial, unsupported third party repo.
- Its documentation is so outdated it isn’t useful anymore:
https://docs.slackware.com/howtos:slackware_admin:installing_on_uefi_hardware
“Some modern computers have started to offer motherboards that use Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) as a replacement for the traditional BIOS.”
Don’t use it.
I did use it for a while, then switched to something else.
Still have a soft spot for it in my heart, I just wish they’d modernize a little.
OpenSuSe - snapper for taking btrfs snapshots and rolling back. It’s basically a bulletproof way to do updates and recovery. Get a bad update or change a config in correctly you can roll back. Updates it automagically does this for you
Gentoo - patience.
But seriously. With theUSE
flags, compiler options, you can understand software more from a developer’s point of view.
You can try to optimize software for your hardware.
Fully explore theconfigure
options. With a binary package you have no control.deleted by creator