I’ve been a DM for about 3 years, and have predominantly run one-shots and short campaigns in DnD5e and PF2e. I have a player who persistently builds primary caster based characters, but then won’t do anything in combat but “I stab it with my dagger.” They rarely use cantrips, and basically won’t cast a leveled spell unless I suggest it immediately before their turn. They seem to enjoy playing despite the fact that they’re far too squishy to be a front-line melee character and don’t utilize most of their class features. I’ve talked with them explicitly about how their play style seems to be discordant with the kind of play they want to do, and that maybe next time they should try a paladin/champion or a fighter/rougue subclass with some minor casting. They agreed at the time that sounded like a good idea, but low and behold showed up to the next one-shot with a primary caster, and over 3 hours of play and 3 combats never cast a single spell, including a cantrip.
I enjoy playing with this persons as a whole. They are engaged in the fiction, and are particularly engaged during exploration activities. They tell me they also find combat quite fun, and they are requesting I run a mega dungeon in the near future.
As a general rule, I like to let people play how they have the most fun, but issues have arisen with this play style. Namely, all of my TPKs have been associated with this player charging a squishy character directly up to a significantly stronger villain and continuing to stab it with a dagger until they went down, significantly hindering the party in the action economy and resulting in a TPK. I feel I have to intentionally weaken all of my encounters to keep the party feasible in the face of such mechanically poor combat choices.
What else can I do to help drive this individual towards melee builds, and/or help encourage them to change their play style to better suite the caster classes they choose?
Lots of good advice here already, but I would also suggest this: if they like playing a spellcaster but aren’t very familiar with the spells available, spell cards could be very helpful. If you don’t want to buy official ones, there are sites where you can print your own. I did this for one of our players and it helped her a ton.
Play hardball, they’re squishy, break some bones if they don’t use their spells and run at things I’n cloth instead of plate.
The solution is simple: Remove the dagger mid-combat.
You could make the dagger too hot to hold and it falls out of reach (off a mountain, into rushing water, etc…)
You could make the dagger dissolve away (through lava, acid, being eaten, etc…)
You could make something take the dagger (disarming, stealing, etc…)
A hag/genie/etc could place a curse on the PC (holding anything makes them experience immense pain and drop what they’re holding, anything dagger they hold is turned into a spoon, etc…)
Heat Mefal
“I run up and stab it with my dagger!”
“Are you sure? As a wizard, your dagger is very ineffective and puts you in harm’s way. You could cast fire bolt from where you are standing. You’d have a better chance to hit, do more damage, remain safe, and play to your character’s strengths more. Do you want to do that instead?”
“I’m trying to save my spells for an emergency”
“Well fire bolt is a cantrip, so it never runs out and you can use it every turn like a fighter would use their weapon. Cantrips are the ‘auto-attacks’ for spell casters”
I can’t understand your situation OP if the exchange I described above isn’t the solution. I play with newbies and first timers all the time and we constantly strategize in combat so they can learn how to play as we go. Would your player really say “no, I don’t care, I stab them” after being presented with that option? If so, I think they are doing this intentionally because they think it’s funny or interesting, not because they don’t know better
I’ve noticed this behaviour in people that are unfamiliar with video games or board games.
They’re looking at it, with a very high level approach. Like someone who’s reading a book or watching a movie. It’s not their character, it’s just a character in a big story.
Another variant is the person who is rigidly following the quirk or backstory they’ve created. Sometimes to a level that they aren’t able to critically process. Overlooking it’s a cooperative game and that this type of character will not play well with the team.
Another concern is that new players who experience anxiety will take those hints from the DM and act on them like an order. Resulting in the player unplugging from the game and just doing what they’re told with minimal comprehension or the type that locks in on their action because it was challenged. (This is what caused me to break up with my bf)
I can see where you are coming from but OP assures us that this player knows about games and specifically makes caster characters. This isn’t one sorcerer with a quirk in their backstory about never using their magic, this is multiple characters in a row. I play with new players all the time. Maybe an occasional person will take others’ suggestions as law, but if they do the same thing too many times in a row or force themselves to use the move you recommended when it still doesn’t make sense, you just keep guiding them.
“Don’t forget you have other cantrips too. Using fire bolt was a suggestion. In this fight, you could try using your shocking grasp to get away. Or you could use your magic missile for some guaranteed damage on that heavily-armored hobgoblin. It uses one of your slots, but now seems as good a time as any. They’re no good to you when you’re dead.”
The DM and even the other players should be chiming in with suggestions on other players’ turns. It can get annoying when you know how to play and others are telling you what to do, but if you had a fighter player who just stood in combat and took a disengage action every turn, wouldn’t you eventually speak up and suggest they try a dodge or an attack instead?
That’s why I came to the community. I feel like I’m a reasonable and half-way experienced DM at this point. The player is aware cantrips are unlimited use. The player is a very intelligent individual. I’ve had the conversations about spell use. At its core, I genuinely think the player is attracted to the “cool factor” and “aesthetic” of playing a caster but doesn’t actually want to engage with any of the mechanics. I can remind the player about spells and that reminder will last for a combat, sometimes less. I feel like I’ve done everything I know to do aside from straight banning the player from playing full casters or queuing them to cast spells every-other turn, I’m at a loss.
You’ll have to start killing their character more often. They want to do front line tactics, they can take front line damage, no softballs. Oh, 1d10 kills you in 3 hits, and the mobs chase you because you’re squishy? Damn, maybe get some AC and constitution, or attack from a distance.
I go back and forth on this. I feel like I’m enabling these choices by pulling punches. But it feels excessively anti-fun to just kill them and be like “sorry lol be better”. I don’t think I have the heart to just murder characters all the time.
There’s a difference between punishment and consequences. If you rush into battle with a foam sword and a gun but only use the sword, you’re going to get wrecked because you brought the wrong equipment. Try it in BG3 and see how far you get.
Do you have the chance to sit the whole group down together and tank about that?
As in, tell them what you told us - you can’t dm as you normally would and have to keepepulling punches because he keeps endangering the group and you dont want to punish the group for his bad choices. Remind them that you are supposed to have fun too and dming like you’re walking on eggshells is killing yours.
I’m suggesting bringing it up with the whole group because it sounds like you brought it up with the player alone already. Or maybe you have focused too much on how they could play better instevd of how it negatively affects the group. Maybe they need to realize that even if this is fun for them, it’s not for you - and maybe not for the others as well.
IMHO, this is something that should be talked trough with the group. Getting less lenient and not weakening your encounters is risking the wole group’s fun, so it should be discussed with the group.
Enabling choices per se is a good thing, but if you have to rely on someone for life and death who knows how to shoot a gun, owns it, brings it and yet only uses a knife in the gunfight, it’s gonna get you killed. And this should happen. Just make sure everybody knows about this.
Maybe this will spark discussion about why he makes these characters and why he plays them like this. Maybe it can help find something he enjoys. If not, the group is now prepared to die more often and you don’t have to pull punches.
“Oh no, you opened an ancient container with a curse that turned your mage into a barbarian. Darn. Better luck next time. Let’s keep going”
There’s really no right answer here and I don’t think it’s something that we can work through without that player involved in the conversation. It’s not that they don’t know better, it’s not that you haven’t helped them, it’s not that you haven’t made suggestions, and they’ve been doing this for 3 YEARS??? I’m sorry, but this is above my pay grade. I am almost certain there is some detail that I’m missing because this makes zero sense. I have played with veterans of all walks and ages, new players who are 8 years old, new players that are 60 years old, and everywhere in between. It just doesn’t make sense unless there’s more to it.
Sit down with the player again. Ask why they don’t use cantrips. Leave the leveled spells aside for now (saving them forever is a problem, but an understandable one). Continue to remind them every combat, every turn, every time they take out their dagger. I know you said your group doesn’t know the rules well, so maybe it’s time to learn (3 YEARS???). Cantrips and weapons work exactly the same, so I don’t know how “not wanting to engage with the mechanics” has anything to with it. There’s something going on and I can’t be sure what it is without talking to this player themselves
It’s a tough spot to be in, having tried to coach them towards what would work. They might find being a martial class if they see great success in it. Perhaps a one shot where the players are all some martial build, to show how successful their playstyle would be with the right tools.
Another idea is to suggest classes like Monk or a psywarrior which can use “magic” but are more durable to hits and can skip their powers without losing 80% of their contribution to the fight.
Finally you can lean into it and have them play characters that are conscientious objectors to magic or are scared of it but they have a gift/been railroaded by their guardians. The party can adapt and roleplay around it and maybe encourage the player (in character no less) to use their abilities.
Hopefully one of these helps!
If it is a possibility, you could recommend them a caster class that allows melee. I.e. bladesinger, abjuration wizard, or hexblade.
They could still attack with weapons but use spells for defense or utility
When they additionally learn a blade cantrip like booming blade, they could still attack with the dagger, and you treat it as a passive:
I want to attack using my dagger. I roll a 15 to hit.
Ok, thanks to your booming blade cantrip, your dagger deals additional damage. roll 1d4+1d8
How about making a character that fakes being a caster, and like treats everybody like they don’t deserve to see his magic meanwhile he’s actually a rogue? Looks and behaves like a caster, is just still useful in combat
You’re obviously aware of their playstyle, and if they aren’t very well versed in the rules, maybe you could roll a couple of melee focused spellcaster (Hexblade Warlock, Bladesinger Wizard, etc) options for them and have them choose from one of them rather than relying on them to come up with something on their own? They’d still have some agency, but would play a character that better suits their playstyle.
Oh, and make sure the options don’t have a dagger in their equipment list. 😄
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Is the player choosing a caster for “cosmetic” reasons, or because they don’t know better (like recycling the last character sheet)?
If the first, then maybe they could play a character who disguises as caster, or something along the lines.
If it’s the latter, then they would probably appreciate it if you helped them create a new character from scratch together.
I kind of thought half the reason for the class based system was to appeal to specific fantasies/wish fulfillments, though. My first thought concerning this problem is that maybe they’re playing the wrong caster class, different classes exist for different fantasies.
It’s my personal belief that the mechanics of the caster classes don’t lend themselves well to the fantasy of it.
Does there exist something similar to a spell sword? https://dndtools.net/classes/spellsword/
That might help with melee caster issue :)
This sounds like someone that doesn’t take the time to read and understand the mechanics of their chosen class or the spells and how they work. That’s unfortunate.
Have you discussed how their actions are impacting the other players, and that their play is leading to the deaths of their friends? They may not realize how irritating it can be from the friends’ point of view.
It seems as though they want a wizard-warrior, almost like a Jedi–who fights with swords, but has magic spells too. There are many ways to achieve this character idea and I’m sure you’re more aware of them than I, but it could be as simple as a fighter with the magic adept feat.
I haven’t explicitly stated “your poor choices are killing your friends” but after the last TPK, they were sad and I apologized for killing them, but then immediately went into a discussion of “you know you were fully rested for this, why didn’t you use any of your more powerful spells?”
Unfortunately none of my players are exceptionally well versed in the rules of the system/their characters. They know the basics well enough. Unfortunately they (and I) have very demanding professional lives and reading a rule book is too low on their priority list to ever make it to the top.
I totally agree that the individual would be better suited to an eldritch knight, Paladin, arcane trickster rouge, etc. We’ve had that discussion twice, and it seems to go over well and they agree, until the next session comes up and they have made another caster character.
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I don’t try and TPK my players, quite the opposite. I’m actively downgrading encounters and making mechanically disadvantageous choices to avoid them. The only thing I’m not doing is fudging rolls.
I am reaching out to the community to help me try and better understand how I can resolve this problem at my table, and everyone else in this thread seems to agree that this player’s choices are, at a surface level at least, baffling. I recognize it is probably reflective of some underlying assumptions that I have tried multiple times to elucidate so I can better understand the situation. But for some reason, you are the only person I have encountered who has become hostile and accusatory towards me. I don’t know if you’ve been butt-hurt by some DM in your past or if your games live by the rule of cool. Regardless, you’re being disrespectful and I don’t appreciate that. I won’t be engaging with you anymore.
As an idea, you could very easily begin your next session with all your players in Avernus, with a devil that sees “great potential” in them, and knows they have unfinished business and want nothing more than to continue their quest–and feels like giving them a second chance and a gamble for their souls.
But the cost! Oh! The cost of such a trade is enormous. So enormous in fact… That it will require ripping the magic potential away from one character irrevocably as compensation… They are free to try and scrape together what they can by taking feats, subclasses or multi-classing if you allow it, but they must re-spec their character in a 1-for-1 trade into whatever class you believe best suites their play style (sounds like Paladin, Fighter, or Barbarian).
And the ongoing cost of this contract… Occasionally have this patron reveal himself and task the party to go do questionable things so that eventually, the party gets it in their heads that they are strong enough to take him on and try to end the contract prematurely.
Just an idea, I hate causing players to remake characters to continue a quest and figuring out a plausible excuse for them to pick up where the original characters left off!
That’s a really cool narrative way to go about fixing this, though it does feel kinda rail-roady. I’ll give it some thought.
Yeah, that’s a fair criticism. Maybe you could ask your players which way they would prefer? Give them the option to build new characters, or if they want, keep their current characters for a price.
I also wouldn’t do this without talking to the offending player and making sure they are cool with it and that it isn’t a “punishment” as much as you trying to help them build something that works well for their play style. It might give the players an interesting “living backstory”
Best wishes! DnD is such an awesome thing and I love hearing other people’s experiences both as players and GMs!
I wish I had that option in a previous campaign.
We even had a rule set, if your character dies, you can reroll a new character. Same level. Gearing would be similar (in power, not the same gear).
I hated my character. Mechanically I just did NOT enjoy playing them.
Being a mentally ill character (GOO warlock, Cthulhuesque patron of madness, part of the pact) I turned to depression, fool hardy risks, etc. The DM just would NOT let that character die.
I just wanted to play a character that better fit the party and campaign. Having a “Face” character in a campaign with a stupid barbarian (both player and int score) that solved every problem with a great axe, and if there wasn’t a problem created one, was useless.
Got stopped by guards at the gate of a new town? Instead of just talking for 30 seconds, the party wound up jailed and forced into trial by combat. It didn’t end well. Then I (the host for every session, but not DM) changed jobs and schedules and no one else would host so it died.
They break their fingers and can no longer hold a dagger. Luckily this injury doesn’t impact their spellcasting abilities.
Also I want to say that it would be normal for most big baddies to laugh at a 10 hp robe wearing mage poking them to ignore them and laugh like a 5 yr old kicking at their feet. They maybe don’t have to smite them immediately.
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The player obviously is stubborn and won’t apply what you’ve told them.
Kill their character. Their wizard with high intelligence wants to melee? The monsters are smart and they see the robe guy who gets stabbed easily - so that’s what they do. All. Of. Them.
Kill, kill, kill. Then have a chat with them after about why this happened. Let them know they know how to play the game but actions have consequences and the monsters are smart. You’ve let them have their learning curve and now there are stakes.