This is just Zelenskyi’s government in Kyiv sacrificing everyone else to maintain the notion of a Ukrainian state for the wealthy elite who (coincidentally) live in Kyiv. Look at where the rich are. Look at where most conscripts are from.
Ukraine is split into the ultra wealthy (Kyiv), the moderately well-off (Dnipro, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv), and everywhere else (which is remarkably poor). Kyiv has more than double the GDP/capita of the next richest administrative region. This war devastates the eastern economic centers and solidifies power in Kyiv… And for what?
Ukrainian nationalism have sent hundreds of thousands of men and women to their death for no clear gains. Now, they want to send hundreds of thousands more, because the lives of Ukrainians mean nothing to the people in the white ivory towers of Kyiv. Is the sacrifice of more Ukrainian lives worth it to pursue the Western ideal of crushing Russia (so that the West can collectively focus on the Middle East and China instead)?
Ukraine isn’t fighting “crush Russia” or “consolidate power,” they are fighting to exist as a nation. They are fighting to not be part of Russia, and if you claim Russia doesn’t consolidate wealth into a small few while sacrificing their poor as cannon fodder, you’re unabashedly lying.
Now, do Western nations take advantage of this to severely weaken with no personal loss of life or territory? Absolutely. But just because it benefits the West doesn’t mean it doesn’t also benefit Ukraine.
Ukrainian nationalism as a concept is something that has always been a Kyiv-centered idea. This is true stretching back to the Russian Revolution, as well. The concept of Ukraine as an independent state has always been Kyiv’s idea.
Tell me you don’t understand Russian history without telling me you don’t understand Russian history.
Russia wouldn’t be rolling in if NATO didn’t decide to turn Ukraine into the world’s most Nazified hand-puppet. Y’know, to encircle and exterminate Russia, in direct breach of the Minsk Accords.
tl;dr Occupied Turtle Island being the same oathbreaking settler trash they’ve been for the last 400 years started this. It could be ended just as easy; but oathbreaking settler trash can’t abide that!
All 12 original points of Minsk 1, all 5 points of the followup, and all 13 points of Minsk 2 by Ukraine’s ongoing genocide of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts and the receipt(and usage) of NATO materiel. NATO is implicated despite not being a signatory due to being involved in the flouting by way of providing aid and comfort to the government that couped Poroshenko on Occupied Turtle Island’s command, delivering them materiel and troops, and by all rights encouraging the ongoing meat-grindering of the region.
Understand that I will not be arguing with the kinds of people that John Brown would have shot; a number in which I count you, given your cheerleading the murder of one set of Nazi-infiltrated sovereign citizens to attempt and fail to destroy another sovereign nation on behalf of Anglo-American slavemasters.
They shoud limit the deathtoll by suing for peace instead of continuing to send peoples dying in a war they can’t win. How is it such a hot take to you that humman lives are more important than imaginary lines on a map?
You know who could limit or remove that deathtoll really quick? That would be russia, you know, the ones who rolled into a country with war on their minds and started the whole deathtoll thing.
Why do you expect anybody else to act here? Or is russia untouchable in your view?
So you’re just going to ignore the fact that this all started as a simultaneous result of the Five-Eyed Empire blatantly flouting the Minsk Accords multiple times, and then couping the last Ukranian president to install a neonazi regime; all to the end of letting NATO encircle and exterminate Russia. You’re literally worthless to discuss geopolitics with if you just approach from a settler’s tabula rasa.
Ah yes. Those mystical neonazis. Flouting you say! Oh my. Not flouting! Definitely a reason to invade and level towns. Just, you know, flouting with cruise missles. Te-he. Totally.
Russia can try all the gaslighting they want, but the true fact is that Russia invaded. Not NATO. Not Ukraine. They don’t like the war. They can leave.
Plus, only reason NATO is expanding is because Russia is a shitty neighbor. They should try being less a shitty dictatorship. Oh and not invade other countries. Pretty easy…
This is pure wishfull thinking. It doesn’t matter what you or I want or would like to happen, a country that is decisively winning a war wont just stop and go home before having secured a peace deal from the other side. This idea that Russia could simply leave is not realistic. Russia would suffer a net loss if they withdrew for no reason like this, and the Russian politicians obviously wont chose that when they already realized most of their military objectives. Ukraine on the other hand has litteraly no reason to keep fighting. It can’t be overstated: they are losing. Dispite all of the military aid from the US and EU and all the economic sanctions on Russia, the frontline has bearly moved since the strikes on Kiev; even being so generous that you ignore the fact that Russia hasn’t commited nearly has much to the war as Ukraine did proportionally, the situation could only be described at best as a standstill. Now, after almost two years of war, Russia has successfully wiggled out of western sanctions, now selling/buying to India and China most of what they used to sell/buy to Europe, Western aid to Ukraine have dwindled hard, with the US’s contribution, Ukraine’s biggest supplier until recently, being now a pitifull fraction of what it was in 2022. Not to mention that multiple western countries have admited that they ran out of things to send to Ukraine and are starting to shift their attention away from it anyway with the Israel stuation. With all of that and the failure of the 2023 counteroffencive Ukraine definitely lost any chance of winning the war.
At this point, all Ukraine is doing by continuing to send soldiers to the meatgrinder is increasing the deathtoll for nothing. The war will end with Russia taking The Donbass, Luhansk, and possibly the whole coast, regardless of how many zeros the Ukrainian deathtoll has. The only REALISTIC thing that can put an end to the war is a peace deal on Russia’s terms. Now matter how much you say that “Russia could just stop”, that’s not happening.
It’s also importent to be aware that there would never have been a war in the first place without western meddleing. As soon as the maidan coup happened the region was doomed for conflict, the west stirred up conflict on purpose with the hope of weakening Russia without them having to fight directly. Russia tried to propose deals with Ukraine that would only impose them to stay neutral and not get involved with NATO, Ukraine often showed iterest in signing, but every time, some western politician flew to where the talks were happening and for some reason Ukraine changed their mind just after. Pretending that only Russia is at fault is ignorant of the geopolitical situation in the region, as expected from westerners who probably didn’t even know Ukraine existed before 2022.
Fucking thank you. When i tried to say that this current war had some historical context of US/nato meddling, i was called a tankie.
I don’t even care for or support either side, i simply said it has a historical context, the same as the 7 october attacks in Israel had a historical context.
Finaly a non communist aware that the war started for actual geopolitical reasons and not just because Putin is evil. That’s a rare sight around here.
Don’t mind the tankie calling to much, it has become a miningless term radlibs call litteraly anyone they disagree with, just like how right winger call everyone they disagree with “woke” or “SJW”. I’ve seen some of these clowns call anarchists and even right wingers tankies, no joke.
Thanks, being called a tankie didn’t bother me. It just took me by surprise because i wasn’t even saying anything untrue.
Honestly I’m learning more from hexbear and lemmygrad than lemmy.world, amongst others. I had a vague idea about the geopolitics and history of certain areas but the posts and discussions on there really shed a lot of light on that. And a lot is freely available information if you want to search for it. On the other instance they’ll rather spit venom at each other than exchange information.
Ok, not everyone is bad on lemmy.world, but I’ve come across the most hateful, asinine users there.
Nice to hear friend. You’re welcome on our evil tankie lair anytime .
And, yeah, although there is your occasional resonable folks like yourself .world especialy and lemmy.ml to a somewhat lesser extent are very full of “scratched liberals” as the saying goes.
They had a peace deal laid out in front of them. That peace deal was orders better than the status quo today, nevermind where the war will be a year from now.
Uh, because they are all within one nation. They identify as Ukrainians.
You could transmute your statement to any other nation and it would be the same. Why do the people in Archangelsk fight for Moscow? Why do the people in Wichita fight for Washington?
Tribalism is an innate feature of the human experience.
I never said that Ukrainians must only identify as Ukrainians, just that it is the reason why folks outside of Kyiv choose to fight. Do not put words into my mouth.
Russia started this war shooting elementary schools with tanks and launching rocket strikes on hospitals. Do you really think this is just about “the western ideal” of crushing Russia? If you want to see why Ukraine is fighting so hard to not become part of Russia, just look at how shitty Russia has been to its soldiers and people during this war.
Do you really think this is just about “the western ideal” of crushing Russia?
It obviously is. This is what the Anglo Empire’s wanted since the end of World War 2. This is how they’ve been maneuvering NATO ever since it was headed up by the Nazis they saved from Nuremberg and Mossad. Donetsk and Luhansk voted democratically to join Russia; so it’s kind of showing how hypocritical you settlers are about democracy, considering how much materiel came from the West to genocide those who did choose Russia.
“No no no, democracy only counts when we cosign it”-headasses, willing to coup and genocide anybody if it means your order perpetuates. It frankly sickens me you’d try and bullshit that it could be anything else; but I rly don’t know why I expect any better from settler stains.
Just replace Ukraine in this post with russia and you have the true facts. Incredible this projection thing, always the same with fascists like you, always blame others of what you do and want.
ukraine has put off counter attacks because the loss of life isnt worth it, they wait so they can get better equipment. compare that to russia who uses it soldiers as meatgrinders
This is just Zelenskyi’s government in Kyiv sacrificing everyone else to maintain the notion of a Ukrainian state for the wealthy elite who (coincidentally) live in Kyiv. Look at where the rich are. Look at where most conscripts are from.
Ukraine is split into the ultra wealthy (Kyiv), the moderately well-off (Dnipro, Donetsk, Zaporizhzhia, Kharkiv), and everywhere else (which is remarkably poor). Kyiv has more than double the GDP/capita of the next richest administrative region. This war devastates the eastern economic centers and solidifies power in Kyiv… And for what?
Ukrainian nationalism have sent hundreds of thousands of men and women to their death for no clear gains. Now, they want to send hundreds of thousands more, because the lives of Ukrainians mean nothing to the people in the white ivory towers of Kyiv. Is the sacrifice of more Ukrainian lives worth it to pursue the Western ideal of crushing Russia (so that the West can collectively focus on the Middle East and China instead)?
Ukraine isn’t fighting “crush Russia” or “consolidate power,” they are fighting to exist as a nation. They are fighting to not be part of Russia, and if you claim Russia doesn’t consolidate wealth into a small few while sacrificing their poor as cannon fodder, you’re unabashedly lying.
Now, do Western nations take advantage of this to severely weaken with no personal loss of life or territory? Absolutely. But just because it benefits the West doesn’t mean it doesn’t also benefit Ukraine.
Ukrainian nationalism as a concept is something that has always been a Kyiv-centered idea. This is true stretching back to the Russian Revolution, as well. The concept of Ukraine as an independent state has always been Kyiv’s idea.
Tell me you don’t understand Russian history without telling me you don’t understand Russian history.
They are hopped up on nationalism, which is encouraged by the Western warmongers for their own benefit.
You’re right they should just let Russia roll in, murder their population and take their land. #Diplomacy
Russia wouldn’t be rolling in if NATO didn’t decide to turn Ukraine into the world’s most Nazified hand-puppet. Y’know, to encircle and exterminate Russia, in direct breach of the Minsk Accords.
tl;dr Occupied Turtle Island being the same oathbreaking settler trash they’ve been for the last 400 years started this. It could be ended just as easy; but oathbreaking settler trash can’t abide that!
What part of which Minsk accords were violated by who? A “direct violation” should be easy to cite. The text of either accord is short as well.
Also, NATO did not sign the accords so already your claim is weird.
All 12 original points of Minsk 1, all 5 points of the followup, and all 13 points of Minsk 2 by Ukraine’s ongoing genocide of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts and the receipt(and usage) of NATO materiel. NATO is implicated despite not being a signatory due to being involved in the flouting by way of providing aid and comfort to the government that couped Poroshenko on Occupied Turtle Island’s command, delivering them materiel and troops, and by all rights encouraging the ongoing meat-grindering of the region.
Understand that I will not be arguing with the kinds of people that John Brown would have shot; a number in which I count you, given your cheerleading the murder of one set of Nazi-infiltrated sovereign citizens to attempt and fail to destroy another sovereign nation on behalf of Anglo-American slavemasters.
Right so NATO didn’t violate the Minsk accords.
Lol
You couldn’t come with a dumber comment if you tried.
Oh, it’s Ukrainian nationalism causing the deaths is it, not Russia invading? Do you really believe such obvious bullshit and lies?
Well, if Ukraine didn’t stubbornly insist on remaining a nation, there wouldn’t be any fighting. Checkmate western scum. /s
So much for democratic self-determination ig. Love it when the locusts finally drop the mask.
Look at where the conscripts are coming from. You tell me.
so they should just become putin’s bitchboys instead?
They shoud limit the deathtoll by suing for peace instead of continuing to send peoples dying in a war they can’t win. How is it such a hot take to you that humman lives are more important than imaginary lines on a map?
You know who could limit or remove that deathtoll really quick? That would be russia, you know, the ones who rolled into a country with war on their minds and started the whole deathtoll thing.
Why do you expect anybody else to act here? Or is russia untouchable in your view?
So you’re just going to ignore the fact that this all started as a simultaneous result of the Five-Eyed Empire blatantly flouting the Minsk Accords multiple times, and then couping the last Ukranian president to install a neonazi regime; all to the end of letting NATO encircle and exterminate Russia. You’re literally worthless to discuss geopolitics with if you just approach from a settler’s tabula rasa.
Yea i tend to ignore bullshit
Ah yes. Those mystical neonazis. Flouting you say! Oh my. Not flouting! Definitely a reason to invade and level towns. Just, you know, flouting with cruise missles. Te-he. Totally.
Russia can try all the gaslighting they want, but the true fact is that Russia invaded. Not NATO. Not Ukraine. They don’t like the war. They can leave.
Plus, only reason NATO is expanding is because Russia is a shitty neighbor. They should try being less a shitty dictatorship. Oh and not invade other countries. Pretty easy…
This is pure wishfull thinking. It doesn’t matter what you or I want or would like to happen, a country that is decisively winning a war wont just stop and go home before having secured a peace deal from the other side. This idea that Russia could simply leave is not realistic. Russia would suffer a net loss if they withdrew for no reason like this, and the Russian politicians obviously wont chose that when they already realized most of their military objectives. Ukraine on the other hand has litteraly no reason to keep fighting. It can’t be overstated: they are losing. Dispite all of the military aid from the US and EU and all the economic sanctions on Russia, the frontline has bearly moved since the strikes on Kiev; even being so generous that you ignore the fact that Russia hasn’t commited nearly has much to the war as Ukraine did proportionally, the situation could only be described at best as a standstill. Now, after almost two years of war, Russia has successfully wiggled out of western sanctions, now selling/buying to India and China most of what they used to sell/buy to Europe, Western aid to Ukraine have dwindled hard, with the US’s contribution, Ukraine’s biggest supplier until recently, being now a pitifull fraction of what it was in 2022. Not to mention that multiple western countries have admited that they ran out of things to send to Ukraine and are starting to shift their attention away from it anyway with the Israel stuation. With all of that and the failure of the 2023 counteroffencive Ukraine definitely lost any chance of winning the war.
At this point, all Ukraine is doing by continuing to send soldiers to the meatgrinder is increasing the deathtoll for nothing. The war will end with Russia taking The Donbass, Luhansk, and possibly the whole coast, regardless of how many zeros the Ukrainian deathtoll has. The only REALISTIC thing that can put an end to the war is a peace deal on Russia’s terms. Now matter how much you say that “Russia could just stop”, that’s not happening.
It’s also importent to be aware that there would never have been a war in the first place without western meddleing. As soon as the maidan coup happened the region was doomed for conflict, the west stirred up conflict on purpose with the hope of weakening Russia without them having to fight directly. Russia tried to propose deals with Ukraine that would only impose them to stay neutral and not get involved with NATO, Ukraine often showed iterest in signing, but every time, some western politician flew to where the talks were happening and for some reason Ukraine changed their mind just after. Pretending that only Russia is at fault is ignorant of the geopolitical situation in the region, as expected from westerners who probably didn’t even know Ukraine existed before 2022.
Fucking thank you. When i tried to say that this current war had some historical context of US/nato meddling, i was called a tankie.
I don’t even care for or support either side, i simply said it has a historical context, the same as the 7 october attacks in Israel had a historical context.
Finaly a non communist aware that the war started for actual geopolitical reasons and not just because Putin is evil. That’s a rare sight around here.
Don’t mind the tankie calling to much, it has become a miningless term radlibs call litteraly anyone they disagree with, just like how right winger call everyone they disagree with “woke” or “SJW”. I’ve seen some of these clowns call anarchists and even right wingers tankies, no joke.
Thanks, being called a tankie didn’t bother me. It just took me by surprise because i wasn’t even saying anything untrue.
Honestly I’m learning more from hexbear and lemmygrad than lemmy.world, amongst others. I had a vague idea about the geopolitics and history of certain areas but the posts and discussions on there really shed a lot of light on that. And a lot is freely available information if you want to search for it. On the other instance they’ll rather spit venom at each other than exchange information.
Ok, not everyone is bad on lemmy.world, but I’ve come across the most hateful, asinine users there.
Nice to hear friend. You’re welcome on our evil tankie lair anytime
.
And, yeah, although there is your occasional resonable folks like yourself .world especialy and lemmy.ml to a somewhat lesser extent are very full of “scratched liberals” as the saying goes.
They had a peace deal laid out in front of them. That peace deal was orders better than the status quo today, nevermind where the war will be a year from now.
Uh, because they are all within one nation. They identify as Ukrainians.
You could transmute your statement to any other nation and it would be the same. Why do the people in Archangelsk fight for Moscow? Why do the people in Wichita fight for Washington?
Tribalism is an innate feature of the human experience.
Despite Taiwan’s charter stating very clearly that they are the rightful government of China, the people there identify as Taiwanese.
Oh, oops, I don’t think I’m supposed to find contradictions.
Wow, you’re right! You have found the one chink in my armor that completely tears down my statement!
The Romanovs must all be British now.
The Dalai Lama must be American.
Lana Peters is Russian. So are all Ukrainians and Tatars that were forced to migrate.
Pack it up folks, by the decree of Nekandro, you can never be part of multiple tribes or switch ever!
That was your claim. Thanks for disproving it, I guess?
I never said that Ukrainians must only identify as Ukrainians, just that it is the reason why folks outside of Kyiv choose to fight. Do not put words into my mouth.
Folks out of Kyiv are being forcibly conscripted right now. Jesus, look at Ukrainian social media. It’s bleak out there.
Russia started this war shooting elementary schools with tanks and launching rocket strikes on hospitals. Do you really think this is just about “the western ideal” of crushing Russia? If you want to see why Ukraine is fighting so hard to not become part of Russia, just look at how shitty Russia has been to its soldiers and people during this war.
It obviously is. This is what the Anglo Empire’s wanted since the end of World War 2. This is how they’ve been maneuvering NATO ever since it was headed up by the Nazis they saved from Nuremberg and Mossad. Donetsk and Luhansk voted democratically to join Russia; so it’s kind of showing how hypocritical you settlers are about democracy, considering how much materiel came from the West to genocide those who did choose Russia.
“No no no, democracy only counts when we cosign it”-headasses, willing to coup and genocide anybody if it means your order perpetuates. It frankly sickens me you’d try and bullshit that it could be anything else; but I rly don’t know why I expect any better from settler stains.
Just replace Ukraine in this post with russia and you have the true facts. Incredible this projection thing, always the same with fascists like you, always blame others of what you do and want.
It’s a war for Moscow that nobody outside of Moscow cares about? At least Moscow hasn’t completely decimated the demographic pyramid of Russia.
Not from a lack of trying, mind you.
ukraine has put off counter attacks because the loss of life isnt worth it, they wait so they can get better equipment. compare that to russia who uses it soldiers as meatgrinders
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Steiner couldn’t mobilize enough men. He wasn’t able to carry out his assault.
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