Hey everyone! Just trying to figure out if what I’m thinking is a good idea or the worst idea ever. My group is only two sessions in. They started at level 5. I have them going into a supposed-to-die battle wherein they wake in hell and have to figure out how to get out (yadda yadda this is where the real story starts). I was thinking that when they awaken in the underworld that they’d revert to level 1 and lose their gear, and that’s my contention. Is that a dick DM move? Or would it make sense? I know it’s hard to give a solid answer and the best way to know is to know my players, but I don’t exactly want to ask them for obvious reasons. How would you all feel?
Thanks!
This would feel really annoying. You’re ripping away all of their agency and punishing them for the sake of your narrative rather than for something they did.
If you want to depower them but also communicate to the players it isn’t permanent maybe give them a penalty when rolling for skills during the first session in hell as a way to represent amnesia or being in a foggy state. As their memories return give them their skills back by lightening and then removing the penalty. One session of this will novel, two or more will be tedious.
You can strip them of current gear if it’s communicated that they will get it back once they leave hell. A demon explains their spirits were ripped away from their mortal shells that still exist back wherever they were or something. When the players end this adventure they go back to their actual bodies or whatever. Don’t permanently just take stuff from players in a way beyond their control.
You’re ripping away all of their agency and punishing them for the sake of your narrative rather than for something they did.
This is everything I needed to hear (read). You’re absolutely right, thanks for the reality check.
Not to say I’m against the idea of putting them in a tough spot with no gear. The main issue of skills can be handled with debuffs, which effectively gives you the same outcome- the characters have lost their abilities for the moment.
The second issue is amnesia. It’s asking a lot of players to walk into RPing amnesia, especially doing a story where they get their memories back. The metagaming required by them to push their characters to complete that story but also pretending they aren’t seems not ideal.
Instead of that, a suggestion- start the session with the players living their normal lives. At camp or whatever. A demon shows up, tells them their souls are going to be dragged to hell, and then does just that. This immediately and smoothly explains why they are debuffed and have no gear.
Instead of amnesia, use something about their backstories. You know, they got some secret they have to admit or atone for or whatever to get out of hell. If you don’t have anything specific from their backstories use their personality to craft something open ended for them to RP. Generic examples: “You disappointed someone” or “You ruined a life.” or something. And whatever the players admit has to be true to work, so whatever they make up on the spot becomes part of their backstory. (If the players try to be cute and admit to something that isn’t really worth being a deep dark secret it won’t work and maybe give them a small zap for it).
Maybe there is an altar with some item for each player. Combat encounter by the party to reach the alter, player gets a big moment, get item. Repeat for all players (obvs try to give some variety to the specifics). Once the party has all items they can escape hell. Maybe even all the items combined are a key into a hell fortress and they have to get past an extra big combat encounter to get to the portal/door/whatever that gets them out.
It’s not a dick DM move as much as a lazy move. But it might feel like a dick DM move to some of them.
If the idea is to make them weaker, give them a long-lasting debuff rather than removing levels. 50% HP, -4 to attack rolls, etc. Removing levels requires a lot of work on the player’s part, and feels like it takes the game backwards rather than forwards. Giving them a debuff that they have to work to restore, on the other hand, feels like there’s a path forward to advance towards.
Might be a situation where exhaustion rules come into play.
As a player I would find it annoying. I now have to redo my character based on lvl1
On the other hand you could treat it as a story gimmick. start all the players at the target lol for the game then have them defeated in fight 1.
The aim is now to regain their abilities through the course of the story.
That was kind of my thought, having seen it done in video games amply.
I’d only do it if I explained it to the players first
This. If I spent time leveling up a character, just for them to be smashed down, I’d be very annoyed. If you told me beforehand that the levels are temporary, I’d be game, but I will likely make different choices the second level up.
It’s moot now because I’ve decided against it, but technically they haven’t spent any time leveling up - they started the game at 5.
But starting at 5 is really, make a level one, then bring it up to 5. Taking all the advancements per level.
Truuuuuuuuue but I feel like it’s not the same emotional investment as leveling up by playing, if that makes sense?
It usually happens a lot faster in video games than 3 sessions in. If it happens later in a video game, it’s usually a very short, very temporary scene of depowerment.
I had a whole paragraph typed out on my phone but didn’t like most of it. By now many other players said most of what was in there already before I had the chance to proofread and reword it. The gist of it was though: Don’t alter player characters or take their power away without at least one of those three being true:
- The player agrees beforehand and is aware it will happen.
- The player character has done something so horrendously stupid that it could’ve easily been their death so e.g. them losing a limb and now having a pegleg is them being lucky.
- It is very temporary, I’d say max 1 in-game day/1session and the player (not necessarily the character) is aware of that.
You might argue that picking that fight that would get them sent to hell would qualify as #2. But with you planning it out ahead of time it’s less them doing something dumb and more the DM guiding them to do something dumb.
Giving you the benefit of the doubt of only 3 hour sessions and ignoring the time they planned out their characters, you let them play with their characters for around 6 hours by now and it’ll probably be another hour or two until they “die”. This might sound harsh but even with you backtracking on this, seriously entertaining this idea in the first place worries me about what else you might have in store.
Regarding the “OP staff of fire” one of your players has: Did you talk to that player about it in private? I find that usually players respond well to the DM being open about something being so overpowered it warps the entire campaign to the point where you have to design every encounter around it. I’d recommend approaching them about it in private, and not at the (virtual?) table when everyone’s eager to play already.
Maybe you could just get the player on board to trade the item in for something less disruptively powerful. Essentially nullifying their magic item by being in hell where every enemy is fire-immune while everyone else still has some useful, fun magic toy feels uncool too after all.Edit: and a player who wouldn’t agree to “Hey, your item is so strong I have to design everything around it so you don’t just steamroll everything. Can we, for example, have you meet a merchant where your character trades it for something else?” would react HORRIBLY to having it and all levels taken by force to the point where they’ll just quit.
dropping character level sounds like a bad call. Metroid the player’s gear, but not their ability to interact with the world.
I definitely want to nix the gear ( I made a dumb decision to allow everyone one magical item and didn’t vet before the game so someone had a staff of fire which is entirely too OP for level 5 - my fault yes).
Funny, fire can’t burn creatures in hell. (Would be my fix)
Wouldn’t you know it, these magma mephits are immune to fire!
I kind of disagree with this one, because making the magic item nearly completely useless would cause the opposite problem, where they’re the only player without a useful magical item, and it really sucks being the only character that’s struggling to be useful every encounter.
I would personally HATE this. Moreso the levels than the gear. Maybe a single session or dungeon that I know is going to be short, but if I had to regain those levels I’d contemplate leaving the campaign.
why did they lose their levels? Did they get amnesia and forget how to fight or spell or such?
The reasoning I had was that it’s basically a new life, but to your point if their minds are still intact then dropping levels may not make the sense that I’d thought it would.
yeah I think its a fine thing to do but with this kinda thing you really want to flesh it out and make sure it makes sense because if its just. I said so. People can get peeved.
There are a few general problems with the idea overall. It’s possible to execute them in an enjoyable way, but a few of your ideas are considered “Do-Not’s” for inexperienced DM’s.
No-win situations aren’t fun. If you’re planning on running a whole combat where the party has no chance of winning, it’s likely they will be frustrated. It removes character agency, and makes all of their decisions and actions meaningless.
You’re better off just starting the session where you want, or forcing the scenario early in a different way, than letting them think their actions will affect the narrative when they won’t. . It’s fine to send them to hell and not give them a chance to avoid it, just don’t make them think that they could have, if that makes sense. It’s about expectations, if you manage them well, you’ll eliminate a lot of disappointment
Don’t take away levels, period. If you want to hinder them for some reason, make the class features themselves unreliable. The Paladin’s smites don’t work in Hell, his god has no power here. Devils resist fire, and have resistance to weapons, etc.
As far as taking their gear, that’s not always a bad idea, but you’ll get mixed opinions on it. If you do it, make sure they can get it back relatively quick. Don’t have them fighting with rocks and sticks for multiple sessions. Maybe one of their captors is looking to escape too, or overthrow the overlord and will get the party’s gear if they help. That gives them a choice to make, and you get to throw in some unintended consequences.
If your main concern is on overpowered magic item, my advice is to let it ride. It won’t be overpowered for long, and as DM you can always tinker with monster number, HP, resists to counter it. Again, it’s a feel-bad moment for a player when you take their cool toys. If it’s very disruptive for your game, or you’re worried about party balance, then just talk to the player and say you need to nerf it some. You can reduce it’s charges or lower the damage dice. Basically anything is preferable to saying “this item is too strong you can’t use it anymore”.
Hopefully some of that was coherent and useful, but good luck with your game. Hope everyone has fun.
If it’s really mostly about the one magic item, I suggest a different course of action entirely:
Pull the player aside. Tell them it has to be weakened for now, but give them a longer term quest to make it better. Most players will love the extra involvement more than overpowering the rest of the group.
@Pronell
I don’t know. Giving them a long term quest might work, but giving them a long-term quest to pretty much fix what you just took away from them feels cheap and obnoxious. (Please don’t take this as an insult.)
I’d discuss it with the player, putting your foot down if absolutely necessary, and I might look for an opportunity to make their character especially integral to a quest as a reward/compensation, but not a quest to fix the item, and only if the other players won’t mind.I meant bring it back to the power it was and then some, help it scale with the player.
One of my players has two pieces of Fraz’urbluu’s staff. He knows he can become a lot more powerful with more pieces but that it comes with consequences he would rather avoid.
It’s all a deep part of his personal plot and he loves it. Granted it was never something I took from him and nerfed.
I think it’d be a pretty dick DM move. I’d hate it. Gear comes and goes, but when I was a player I’d spend entire weeks planning how I would minmax my builds over the next levels. Getting sent back to square one on that would feel terrible. I get that you’ve only just started your campaign, so maybe your players aren’t that attached to their characters, but my players would probably still scream at me if I tried to pull something similar on them.
supposed-to-die battle
Never plays well in a collaborative game. The players will do something you don’t expect, you’ll try to force it anyway, and everyone will be pissed off.
revert to level 1
I’d probably quit the campaign.
Seriously, don’t do this. It works in video games, but not a collaborative storytelling game. Find some other way to get them to the hells, such as enticing them with a quest and portal. Any plot that revolves around players losing a specific battle or doing some specific action is bound to fail.
I fucking hate it when video games do this too!
I’d make sure they know something like this is going to happen before they even do character creation or begin the campaign. This absolutely isn’t something that should come as a surprise to the players mid-campaign. Many character concepts could be completely ruined by being de-levelled, and they need to be able to plan for playing their character from level 1. It should be the case that the higher level play that precedes the delevelling is a “flash forward”, ie. They should know it’s not the character they should expect to play.
If you tell people you are starting a campaign at level 5 and then they show up and 2 or 3 sessions in you’re like “sike! you’re actually starting at level 1!” … Well, personally I’d quit that campaign if I was a player. And not just because I think level 1 is extremely unfun.
It’s not a terrible idea if executed well, but I wouldn’t do it longer than 1 session, or partway into the second if you hint after the first one that they are close to getting their old power back so they don’t spend the time between the first and second session grumbling.
If you want to put them in hell, just put them into a water level a la Zelda. All their abilities prob won’t work as well and would require creative thinking from you and them to see how to survive.
It’s too much agency taken away from payers for my tastes. Now if you can find a way to make it their choice, that’s potentially different - even if you do so in a trolley problem sort of way to prod them toward the reset.
I’d see it as a fun way to respec as long as I’m choosing to do it.
If it’s a single magic item that’s being a pain in the ass talk with the player out of the game. Say that you messed up giving them a staff of fire and ask them to change it. It should be a discussion and just change it without any note in game.
Also make sure you set some rarity guidelines. A very rare item is a tier 3 item. Don’t throw those items around unless their is a story reason why. Like they stole it from a powerful force who is after them etc. Think frodo in the Lord of the Rings
Realistically in game if the word got around low level party is showing off their super rare item everyone nasty would just try to steal it. That isn’t fun to play unless you explicitly signed up for it
