Beehaw is a community of individuals and therefore does not have any specific political affiliation. At this point in time, we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are. I would suspect that many of them would identify as progressive because we are explicitly a safe space for minorities. What we stand for and the space that we’re trying to make is compatible with many forms of politics. Unfortunately some political groups build themselves around and choose to elevate or tolerate hate speech. These are the only political groups that we are incompatible with. If any of it was unclear in any of the other posts, I will restate it all here. Beehaw does not tolerate hate speech. Beehaw is an explicitly safe space. We center and promote kindness because that is what we see and love in the world.
Some of the instances that we have chosen to defederate with have explicit political stances and ideologies. Their political stance and ideology had nothing to do with the choice to defederate. The choice to defederate was based on the amount of hate speech present on the instance and/or explicitly endorsing it. Since hate speech is not controlled on the instances that these users come from, we cannot expect them to change their behavior when participating on our instance. While users may exist on some of these platforms who do not spread hate speech, the choice to defederate is made to reduce the burden on our moderators and admins. Occasionally these instances or users from these instances will point their fingers at Beehaw and make claims about our political leanings or whether certain kinds of politics are banned. To be explicitly clear, the only kind of politics that are banned here are those which enable hate speech such as fascism.
Politics on the internet
Many, if not most discussions of politics on the internet are poisoned by virtue signaling. When they are not poisoned by virtue signaling, discussions are often just ways to vent emotions. I believe the reason for this is the platforms themselves and the incentives to engage online. On the internet I can adjust my level of anonymity. An adjustable level of anonymity allows me to change how I speak to others while simultaneously mitigating or removing any consequences to myself. This of course varies based on the platform and what I’m attempting to accomplish, but in the context of speaking with others on the internet, I can be relatively consequence free to say whatever I want on most major platforms. Particularly negative or hateful behavior might cause me to be banned off of a platform, but through the use of technology or other means, I can simply create another account (or migrate to another platform) and continue the same speech. In malicious terms, I do not have to worry about managing someone else’s emotions or my connection to them.
In real life, on the other hand, it is not as easy to pass myself off as someone else. I must be much more aware of how I speak to others because consequences can be much more dire. When discussing politics with others, I may alienate them or myself and so I may choose to be more open to listen rather than soapboxing. The people I’m interacting with may be a regular part of my life and may be people I have come to respect. Understanding how they think might be vitally important to maintaining or improving our connection.
I am presenting the internet and real life as two ends of a spectrum but it is more complicated than that. There are people who are very visible and tied to their identities on the internet just as there are people in real life who use false identities created to mask their true identity. Interactions vary in level of connection, platform, and who happens to know who we are in other spaces on the internet. There are plenty of people who talk on the internet about politics with the explicit goal of changing the minds of others. Some of these individuals are not using this as an outlet to manage their own emotions. These generalizations are presented in this way because I need to talk about these patterns in the context of the platform Lemmy. I’m asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.
I would encourage all of you to think about incentives when presented with political drama online. It is easy to get engaged because politics has a direct and often scary effect on our lives. In this community, it is not difficult to find individuals who are regularly marginalized by politicians. Especially for these minorities, it is completely valid to get emotionally invested in politics and I would personally encourage doing so on some level, but we need to think carefully about the other parties present in a conversation and whether they are willing to listen or incentivized to do so. For the people who are hiding behind anonymity and posting to vent their emotional frustrations with the system they are likely not invested in the community we are growing here and it may be appropriate and healthy to ignore or disengage with these folks.
Forking
It is in this political context that forking from the main Lemmy development has been presented. People are quick to point to potential upsides of forking, but the upsides are an after thought presented as a means to bolster or justify forking. These justifications are for what is ultimately a moral issue. The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral. To anyone posing this question, I would ask them to consider what other technology they use every day and to trace the roots back to each invention along the path to today’s day and age. The world has a colonialist history, rife with violence and immoral behavior. Unless you retreat the woods and recreate technologies yourself from scratch, it’s impossible to live in a modern society without benefiting from technology built on countless dead bodies in history.
We do not have the technical expertise to create a new tool from scratch - all we can do is leverage tools that already exist to create communities like this. At the time we created this instance, the service we decided on was Lemmy. We did so with awareness of discussions around the politics of the main instance and developers. I think we’ve done a decent job outlining what we intend to do with this instance and explicitly made strong stances against hate speech and other behavior we do not agree with, including where we disagree with them. When taken in the context of computing in general, these political leanings are also not unique in their social and political harm as compared to some of the tech giants out there. The same is true in comparison to some of the famous tech inventors and innovators; in comparison to the history of computer technology; in comparison to the exploitation and problematic mining of rare earth minerals used in technology; in comparison to the damages we cause to the earth to create the energy used to power our servers. We can follow this path of thinking back all that we want to, and ultimately it’s just not a particularly fruitful discussion to zero in on whether the political leaning of the main developers and instance are in perfect alignment with what we want to accomplish. We are not explicitly endorsing their viewpoint by using their software and we are not tied to using this software forever.
I cannot stress enough how much bandwidth has been taken up by these discussions in recent days. It been brought up as frequently as every few hours across Discord, Matrix, inbox replies, comment replies, new threads, and other forms of communication. We’re currently dealing with a lot of other issues like keeping the server running, expanding to add more communities, moderating the communities amidst a huge influx of users posting and reply content from other instances, managing expenses, optimizing our server, planning for the future, and so much more. We cannot entertain philosophical discussions on all of the wonderful things we ‘could do’ when we’re struggling to keep up with what we’re already currently doing. We have not yet received a serious proposal for a fork which details operational needs when it comes to the maintenance, support, and resources needed to accomplish and maintain it. Simply put we do not believe a fork is necessary at this time.
How you can help
As a final note, if there are things you’d like to see in this community we very much appreciate your input. However, this community has grown so large that I am already finding myself unable to reply to everyone and address everyone’s concerns and I’m sure other admins feel similarly. Please consider whether your questions are better directed elsewhere - consider using the search functionality to see if others have answered the question; consider joining the matrix or discord to field questions to community members, or create a thread asking for help from your fellow users before reaching out to an administrator or a moderator.
If you feel strongly about contributing to Beehaw specifically or helping out with tuning or running the hardware, please join the Matrix or Discord and get involved in the relevant channels or discussions. If you want to contribute to Lemmy development, we would encourage you to dip your toes in, get involved, and get more familiar with the platform. Follow the Github and report bugs when you encounter them, or see what you can contribue to existing open issues. If you see technical issues arise with development, bring it to our attention so that we can act as mediators because we have collective power.
If you feel strongly about a longer term or larger project like creating a team to create documentation or helping us to legally become a nonprofit entity I also want to assure you that we love the enthusiasm, but unless you are coming to us with a formal pitch please spend your efforts self-organizing around this so that you can come to us with that pitch. Assume we know nothing about the field of expertise needed to accomplish any of these larger tasks and assume that we are extremely busy and unable to field or solicit advice without an executive summary and at least a draft plan of what the steps might look like, who would be responsible for those steps, anticipated concerns and plans for addressing them, and a timeline and estimation of resources needed.
My whole experience of moving to lemmy has felt like when people from another state move to a new one and complain about how awful it is and force it to change into where they left. If people are so absplutely offended by the politics of its originators, go create your own social media and stop harassing the poor mods, especially if the mods of this particular instance are trying to make your experience more palatable.
I settled on lemmy.world, but yeah 90% of the lemmy related discussion I see is “Why doesn’t this work like Reddit and when can I expect it to work like Reddit?”
I’ve tried to do my part in explaining this isn’t meant to be Reddit, but I’m already seeing an increase in hostility directed at devs for the lack of central authority (which is the thing they’re fleeing in the first place but fuck me for pointing that out lol.)
Hey server buddy!
I think it’s a mindset - with a company at the head, if you don’t like the product, you should complain.
They need to understand this isn’t a product - it’s a project. It’s not mature yet, and it’s trying to solve a very difficult problem - how do you make social media healthier and more resistant to exploitation. The design they’ve settled on is complex and ambitious, and I’m pretty impressed it’s been able to scale up this well
All that being said, the main complaint I’ve noticed (and I think is valid and it often gets dismissed) - to sign up users are given a choice (which server to join), and to make an informed choice there’s a minimum of a few pages of required reading
It definitely matters, and the way you’re presented this choice is pretty overwhelming
I’m working on a Lemmy client, and my thought is this - break up the options. Give users a choice of 3-5 options with a “next” button and a search option.
Another is the difficulty of finding and subscribing to communities - I’ve noticed a huge improvement with some recent changes, but there’s always more that can be done
Anything else you’ve noticed? Particularly if it’s something to keep in mind as I write the app
I just migrated from Reddit, and liked what I read about BeeHaw. Signup was a bit confusing, but eventually just sent an email to the team, wrote a bit about myself (education, family, interested, political leanings, probably massively oversharing 😅), and got an invite a few minutes later.
So far I really like the tone in here, and especially the quality of the comments. Feels like Reddit at its best, nice and helpful people.
I was on Reddit for 15 years (plus a few years lurking), and it’s been my largest casual time-sink throughout. Leaving sucks. In the end, I couldn’t accept losing my Android client — 10 year anniversary with Relay a few days ago — the thought of having to use the official app made me gag, as probably 95% of my Reddit time is on mobile. So I left for BeeHaw/Lemmy, and now I have to work with something that’s (from a UX standpoint) probably even worse 😅
It’s the principle, though; they’re fucking over their users so incredibly hard, and I don’t want to be a part of that anymore. Even if that means having to use a platform that isn’t mature yet. Fuck it, I’ve been here before, and I can cope with having to start over again. I hope Lemmy can get to a point where there’s a great experience to be had on mobile (I’m currently on/in Jerboa, btw). Maybe you’re the one to fix it? 😍
So — a few things that I’m struggling with that might be worth considering for your app:
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The ability to hide read/upvoted posts! This is my main pain point, by a very wide margin. As a Relay user, I’m used to a fresh screen with fresh new posts every time I open the app. Not so in Jerboa. Open app, and there is (potentially) a very long scroll ahead of me too get past posts I’ve already read and upvoted. I can look for upvotes, but I don’t upvotes everything, so not a perfect indicator. The only functional one seems to be a slightly greyed-out post title (dark theme). My current understanding (very limited, granted) is that this is a Lemmy thing in general, not just Jerboa. Something about lacking the ability to react to a post being previously viewed æ upvoted? Either way, I’d love a setting that would let me hide all posts that I’ve upvoted, or hide all posts that I’ve read (clicked). Also the ability to manually hide a post from the main list view (get rid of something without having to upvoted or click on/into). In combination with a Refresh-button, maybe?
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Better options for sorting posts (newest / popular / etc.). Probably also a Lemmy thing.Sorry, this seems to be there already, I’d just missed it somehow. -
Not having to manually scroll this text box up constantly because what I’m typing is disappearing behind the keyboard. Seriously, Jerboa? 😑
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The ability to hide the downvote button, probably on a per-instance basis, as some allow downvotes, and some don’t.
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The ability to turn off excerpts on the front page.
Sorry, have to go to a meeting, will try to come back to this later and add more suggestions 😊
Good luck with the app! Can’t wait to see it 😃 It’s for Android, right? 😬
I’d love a setting that would let me hide all posts that I’ve upvoted, or hide all posts that I’ve read (clicked). Also the ability to manually hide a post from the main list view (get rid of something without having to upvoted or click on/into).
Me too!
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All that being said, the main complaint I’ve noticed (and I think is valid and it often gets dismissed) - to sign up users are given a choice (which server to join), and to make an informed choice there’s a minimum of a few pages of required reading
It definitely matters, and the way you’re presented this choice is pretty overwhelming
I’m working on a Lemmy client, and my thought is this - break up the options. Give users a choice of 3-5 options with a “next” button and a search option.
I would even go further and allow a “don’t care” option which randomly assigns new users to an instance with auto accept. Even make this the default.
Those who want can have the option to get into the details and make an individual decision.
Yeah. As a project, it requires input from users, not just a company.
I just want a super easy clean simple interface which is what attracted me to reddit in the first place. I feel like anything more complicated than “simple” is a step in the wrong direction. I’ll withhold judgment for a while until I’ve settled in but like many other new users I’m finding the learning curve challenging.
I don’t know that the developers of lemmy intended this to be a space mirroring reddit, nor did they expect a mass exodus of users from reddit jumping on to lemmy.
That’s my entire point though - You’re asking for a Reddit clone, and Lemmy isn’t meant to be a Reddit clone. If you don’t like it, that’s fine, but people need to stop demanding the devs shift gears and make it a Reddit clone.
I disagree that I’m asking for a reddit clone. I’m saying sites like reddit and google were very successful in large part due to their extremely clean minimalist user friendly design. In an era where everything now “just works” it seems like a regression to increase complications.
I recently moved here and through my minimal interaction so far, I love it. I’m all about positive treatment and inclusion. I have only made two posts (as a somewhat personal experiment to test the waters) which would not have had any attention on Reddit, and people actually talked and congratulated me, which was a very weird but welcome experience.
And I love that the downvote arrow is removed in order to promote discussion rather than just vote and move on.
A service can always improve and get better in some ways, but the stance of beehaw is perfect imo
I agree with your sentiments! I love the engagement outside of all if these discussions and absolute flood of “how do I do xyz” and “it would be better if…” on like every single community and every post lol. I, however, want access to lemmygrad so I created another account, but overall I do like how beehaw is structured and all things considered I’m surprised at how much people are being critical of this, especially with Alyaza and gaywallets very patient and thoughtful responses.
More what I’m getting at, though, in terms of trying to change lemmy is changing the culture of it. Regardless of where they are on the spectrum, it seems like most people on lemmy have been some flavor of leftist, and I could be wrong, but holy cow there are a TON of people "both sides"ing and using the example of discussion around gender affirming Healthcare not being a good convo to have here as something infringing on their free speech as if those conversations aren’t dogwhistles for transphobia. People can happily move to other centrist instances, or ones like exploding-heads if they want to engage in that crap. Again, I’m a newb here and I could be off and maybe this has always been a thing, but I was on mastodon years ago which is similar and I wasn’t too far off
I think in terms of technical development, of course there’s always room for improvement but I also feel that some things are the way they are for a reason, and endless expansion might not be what the developers want, over a more cohesive, personal community. I go both ways on that.
Like I never even thought about that aspect and honestly I don’t care as long as I’m not funding violence and hatred. And if that were the case I’d leave. It makes no sense to tell someone how to run their instance. It’s theirs.
Hopefully this is not inappropriate, but regarding the “this platform was made by tankies”–argument:
Yeah lemmygrad will fade in popularity and lemmy.ml has already gotten so big it’s shifted politically. It also seems like the creators are fine with other ideas on their instance too. Maybe it’s just cause they know lemmy wouldnt get adopted otherwise but the only strict moderating against speech I see is against the obvious trolls and alt right fascists so far.
Then you have beehaw and the other instances outright blocking lemmygrad and things seem just peachy
I didn’t realize lemmygrad was tolerating hate speech over there. That’s fucked up.
I think it has more to do with them being Marxist Leninists which is really problematic to a lot of people. You should go check it out and see for yourself what the posts look like.
What specifically about being a Marxist Leninist is so bad that it warrants lumping them in with racists? I’m not an ML and I disagree with them on a number of things, but they’re no Nazis. I looked around I didn’t see anything particularly repugnant.
Honestly I’m pretty much on the same boat as you and I feel like the frenzy is overblown, especially right now with the huge influx of people from a platform that by and large has some pretty lib takes. Some examples that people have given are their unwavering support of China, Russia, North Korea and denial about tianenman Square. I kinda side eye people who don’t have nuanced takes about North Korea or any of those places for that matter. I am also hard pressed to think that people eho specifically identify as ML’s wouldnt do their research, but of course there are all kinds. I am curious what specifically has been done and said that warrants hate speech on there to make it such a big deal. But yeah it’s not like people are screaming “LETS GENOCIDE PEOPLE!!!”. Idk I find it troublesome that people are coming here having no idea about these concepts and are just told “they spew hate speech”. Because most people are probably thinking that they’re over there thinking about how to advance the white race and throwing around the F slur, which is not what’s going on.
I kinda side eye people who don’t have nuanced takes about North Korea
Genuinely curious, what kind of nuanced take is there around North Korea to be had? My impression is it’s basically a slave state with a God King.
As a leftist the only positive take I have about most of these states is that A. The ideas were new and they didn’t know better, or B. The situation they came from was so bad they were justified to try something, but then they got power and grew authoritarian as people do. For instance I think Cuba had every reason to revolt. I also think Castro was a repressive dictator.
the American invasion of Korea killed 20% of the population and leveled 80% of the buildings - over 1.5 million died - and now the nation responsible annually conducts the world’s largest military exercises on the north/south border.
also some of the more outrageous stories and defector testimonies about north korea have turned out to be false, like the “all men are required to get haircuts matching kim jong un” story, which turned out to be unsourced claims from radio free asia, and contradicted the equally unsourced bullshit story that men were forbidden to get the kim jong un haircut
anyway it’s still a tightly controlled, militaristic regime but I think there’s room for nuance
(I am the same OP, just using my lemmy.ml account now that the site isn’t down for me) The person who responded to this before I was able gave some pretty general information regarding my thoughts on North Korea here. I used to eat up all of the American propaganda just like everyone else and fancied myself a leftist as well. But as a leftist, we should all know that we should be highly critical of most news media. I’m also living in the US so that’s the perspective I’m bringing here, btw. Anyway, I have done a bit of research and that small amount has changed my mind drastically on how I look at communist countries.
I am not here to say that I think there is nothing problematic about the place, but their position was largely foisted upon them by imperialism. I cannot fault them for the extreme stance, whether I agree with it or not. Also, I feel that the hysteria around these countries whipped up by the US serves to distract us from how truly fucked up our country is. 25 percent of people in the US are food insecure, 21 percent are illiterate, there are daily mass shootings and constant acts of terrorism, train derailments poisoning towns all in the name of money, we are more and more becoming a police state…We can’t say for sure that we definitely have it better here just because we can leave, or that we live with the illusion of choice.
In your response, you wrote “My impression is it’s basically a slave state with a God King”. I would implore you, when you can, when you have energy, to do a bit of research on things like this when your impression is so extreme. You don’t need to change your stance, you can still feel how you feel, but base that on some semblance of research. If you’re curious I’m happy to try and whip up some articles or youtube videos for you to check out that might be interesting.
Outside of that, relating back to comparing the ideology of Marxist Leninists to hate speech: hate speech is defined as “abusive or threatening speech or writing that expresses prejudice on the basis of ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, or similar grounds.” I have not seen any of this kind of speech on lemmygrad, or from anyone who identifies as ML. In fact a lot of ML’s are staunchly opposed to racism, sexism, homophobia/transphobia, etc. and are part of marginalized groups. Marxist Leninists are not pacifists and from what I gather do believe that war and violence are necessary for revolution but I’ve never seen anyone advocate for genocide, so I feel that the connection is heavy handed. That being said, that’s just my opinion, man, and the mods for beehaw can do what they wish
Editing to add: I also don’t know everything, and there may be some context with lemmygrad that I’m missing, so feel free to educate me if I’m being reductive over here
they aren’t
This is from an outsider (non US) perspective, so I am sorry in advance if this is offensive to ask but Google doesn’t really help me here.
I looked up what a “tankie” is and that seems to be an insult to people who live in a communist state. Is communism considered a hate speech or otherwise hateful for people in the USA?
The common usage of tankie in left spaces is someone who parrots North Korean, Chinese, russian propaganda, someone who supports the use of violence and military action, and someone who will often downplay or deny the atrocities done by one side. For example denying the massacre at tienamen square or supporting Russia’s unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. On lemmygrad there was actually a non ironic thread about celebrating Stalin’s brithday.
A tankie is essentially the leftist counterpart to the right wing fascist. They just support a different flavor of centralized military dictatorship.
Tankie usually means someone who supports the authoritarianism of communist authoritarian nations. Occasionally it’s also used to describe all communists
Communism is not considered hate speech, but it is commonly hated
Interestingly, I think this is similar to how “patriotism” is seen in Germany. Patriotism is commonly hated although probably not all patriots are die-hard Nazis. The dislike or even hate towards communism is very foreign to me but it is good to know, thanks for explaining.
Americans are highly propagadized to hate communism.
My wife is a political organizer, no matter what type of person she engages with people agree with Socialist/Communist policy. However if you start the conversation openly on what ideology that policy is based in people shut down or worse get angry/violent with you. It’s absolutely wild.
Absolutely - and I think there’s huge benefit in beehaw being that example, especially as we see big migrations onto lemmy and the wider fediverse.
After finding out about these issues i considered leaving Lemmy. Then thought about how the Beehaw peeps handle things and honestly, i’d rather be on Beehaw than pretty much anywhere else on Lemmy, they’re precisely the people you want moderating your new home.
As one of the many New Users/Lost Redditors: Thank you for working hard to “keep the lights” and in fostering such a welcoming community.
…
It’s so easy to spot AI generated text (unless it is made to obscure it).
(Not that I oppose its use here. I think tldrs are a suitable use for LLMs.)
Off topic but how can you easily spot AI generated text?
It has a particular style of writing that pops out after you read enough of them. The caveat is that it can be made to change it up enough that you can’t tell. Just tends towards a certain style by default.
Thank goodness for that
Lemmy is an AGPL software. Forking would just put a ton more burden on yourself with no real benefit.
I’d only bother forking if the original devs stopped supporting it and/or there were features you wanted but they refused to implement. What those dev’s political believes are matter very little at the end of the day and it’s ok for people to have different opinions.
Yeah, I don’t even understand what they strive to achieve with a fork.
Okay, it’s forked now… do we add… features that the lemmy devs wouldn’t… like…
…???
Tbh i do not know what argument OP is responding to exactly. Presumably someone wants to rename it Icepick and have a banner at the top of every page proclaiming “we remember our fallen comrades of the Kronstadt rebellion”.
A lot of it has been over on the discord (and apparently the matrix server but I don’t use matrix) and a few other places where lemmy is being discussed. Lots of well intentioned folks who really want to be part of the community or want an alternative to Reddit, but are uncomfortable with the software being associated with the people that it is associated with. I think people just want us to divest ourselves of that association but don’t really understand that we’re just a bunch of folks that wanted to start a cool, nice place to hang out (no shade at all to the ops folks who have been keeping things running through this wild ride the last few weeks, they’re awesome) and we definitely don’t have the expertise or desire to maintain the software it runs on.
I don’t think reddit had a particularly nice beginning either. Everyone was using reddit just the same. The sheer amount of users pushed a lot of the bad stuff into to corners of reddit. I don’t know the history of lemmy but i am sure the crush of new users will do the same here.
Lemmy grew tremendously within a few days so the tankies are drowned out or blocked, and Lemmygrad’s share of pie has shrunk substantially.
That said initially the top two were lemmygrad and lemmy.ml and the creators do run both. On both instances you’d find pro russia and china imperialism and weird stuff like defending the invasion of ukrane and denying tienamen square incident as western propaganda. The other instances were boasting monthly numbers in the double and single digits.
Suffice to say when your biggest instances are coming off as weird mouth pieces for the Russian and Chinese government it can be a turn off. That said on lemmy.ml they seem to have been telling the truth about allowing free speech and with demographic shifts I think it’s less of an issue than it was.
I think some people are uncomfortable with the donations links embedded in the Lemmy-ui code.
in the code… there’s a link to donate
That you’d have to read the code to see…?
That’s not worth a fork.
I’m going to take your response in good faith, but know that it appears from my end that it isn’t.
The code has the UI include a link to donate to Lemmy that appears on literally every page of a Lemmy instance if the code isn’t altered prior to installation.
I don’t see that on my instance, so, I don’t know.
I would also say that that isn’t worthy of a fork, though.
Liberalism in a nutshell
I’m asking everyone on this platform to be wary of anyone who focuses on politics but is unable to explain the issues themselves. They are probably trying to deceive you, are virtue signaling, or projecting their own insecurities and you should be skeptical of their approach.
Is that why? I notice some people will make some wild political assertion, and when I offer a counterargument or ask for evidence, they just repeat themselves. Frustrating.
Or they repeat themselves because that’s all they know what to say. Parroting because they read/heard something that, in their small world view, they agree with and don’t take the time to research.
The other reply made an excellent point. But, I want to add, that sometimes the goal of a debate is just to frustrate you. That’s it. What they’re trying to say may be stupid, nonsensical, needlessly brash, or whatever. That’s intentional. They do not want a sensible discussion, they simply want to piss you off. That’s their win.
There’s a great quote about this, that is (thankfully) often repeated. Let me find it…
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” ― Jean-Paul Sartre
All I’ll say is, this is one of the huge advantages of FOSS. If a website is run by bigots and people tolerant of abhorrent behavior, that’s part of the website. But if FOSS was written by someone of that ilk, you can take the toys they made for you and play elsewhere – they showed their hand as soon as they submitted their project under an open source license, and it’s too late now.
What I do think is worth mentioning is that I wouldn’t be averse to forking conceptually – on a political basis, sure, but as lemmy grows rapidly I think it’s tremendously worthwhile to pay attention to any forks that fix issues and growing pains with lemmy as a service. It seems particularly restrictive on the backend in some ways (could be wrong) and I think that using a more feature rich fork should such a thing appear would definitely be to beehaw’s benefit. But that’s a conversation for when that day comes, and not one that should be predicated on “lemmy=tankies=bad” but rather on “does this fork serve our userbase more”, which is both a healthier question to ask and one more in line with the community being cultivated here. All this is hypothetical or course, but it’s worth talking to these ends early on imo
If there was a more feature rich fork but the og is still really active, will you be able to communicate across forks?
As in could instances on different forks federate with each other? Sure. We already federate with mastodon instances and with kbin and other fediverse platforms. Having two versions of Lemmy is more an issue for maintenance, as well sharing new features and fixes between the forks.
As long as neither fork broke compatibility with the underlying protocol you’d still be able to communicate, for example we can federate with Mastodon instances if we want to and that’s a totally different platform other than the fact it also uses ActivityPub.
The question at hand is whether it is moral to use a platform developed by someone who has committed acts which one deems immoral.
The platform is a tool, much as anything else is. The intent and message is what separate the use of tools. BeeHaw has an amazing intent and purpose. Creation or developer of the tools should not factor into using such.
I sincerely believe this but then again I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak at the same time. Huge difference, I know. Just saying that the CCP definitely has major human rights issues and lemmy dev seems to be in favor of them…
I don’t think forking is the right option either. It’s just that we should be aware of that. That’s all…for now.
I sincerely believe this but then again I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak at the same time. Just saying that the CCP definitely has major human rights issues and lemmy dev seems to be in favor of them…
the whole point of this post though is that you almost certainly are, and you will continue to do so with no consistent objection because your outrage is informed as much by your own biases as by legitimate concern for the abuses you object to.
simply put: if you’re looking for clean hands, i promise you will not find any in technology at any stage of the process. the devices we all use right now to write these comments are only made possible through a system of human rights abuses and callous disregard for human wellbeing–the conditions miners of rare earth minerals work in are appalling. the people who keep the websites you use from being a neverending torrent of horrifying gore, violence, rape, and abuse are exploited and underpaid by the social media corporations that hire them–they are frequently permanently scarred by that experience and left to rot. it is a well established fact that social media sites like Twitter, Facebook, and Reddit are breeding grounds for hate, terrorism, and even organization of genocide. critical infrastructure which underpins their function such as Cloudflare? they’ve gladly gone to the mat for preventing the removal of such “speech” from the internet until it was literally impossible to do so due to PR backlash. those are just four examples–i could spend literally hours railing them off with actual research.
but, do you protest any of that? do you object to it or organize against it with even the outrage you’re mustering against the Lemmy developers right now? or us for using their software? and lest i be misinterpreted as running defense for their takes here: their opinions are bad. they suck. it’d be really cool if they stopped pretending all news about China is western Orientalism. but Lemmy generously has what, 200,000 accounts? Cloudflare is responsible for making like half of the current internet possible through their services. if you want to talk about tools which promote and allow for serious harm, their refusal to drop support for anything but the most vehemently and unambiguously terroristic websites online causes infinitely more harm than anything a Lemmy dev has ever said or ever will. and i promise you’ve interfaced with or make routine use of a service which does or has lobbied for the continuation truly heinous, unforgivable crimes every day–you just don’t know about it, or you’ve already made peace with it. that is the issue here. if you want to die on this hill, be consistent or at least understand what a paltry hill this is in the grand scheme of worldwide injustices.
but, do you protest any of that?
“you should protest everything or nothing, no middle ground allowed”, this has a big “and yet you participate in society” vibe.
i mean, if you cherrypick a point in a long post then yes you can mischaracterize it easily. but also respectfully: if your interest is in preventing harm in any meaningful way, i would strongly recommend that you do something that actually matters and not limit your harm-prevention praxis to “complaining a niche site that you use is hosted on niche software developed by people who you have a political disagreement with, and furthermore disagree with in a way which has no bearing on how those people actually develop the software”. this is unambiguously slacktivism and it’s very evocative of a person who is just lashing out because they can’t influence any other political situation they’re in.
How is this cherry picking…? Literally every paragraph you wrote can be boiled down to that.
I am not finding a clean hand. I realize that there are truckload of messed up problems in this world to be addressed first. I am definitely not trying to die on this hill that honestly, I didn’t even thought it was one in the first place. I was just saying that it’s something we might want to know before we make a decision of using this.
And I don’t have political disagreement. How is human rights concern in Xinjian concentration camp an informed-by-my-own-bias outrage?
I never, ever want to have a political discussion on the internet(especially US politics. I’m Asian myself). I’m just saying that I definitely have some concerns about dev. Remember when Vue.js developer Evan You posted a tweet that basically condemned HK protesters? I’m an avid advocate of free speech but people can express concerns. You saying that do something that actually matters is just a classic case of whataboutism and your original comment is a longer version of it.
Just so you know, I sincerely appreciate for your contribution to this amazing community. I only have some concerns about quite the serious problem that Lemmy dev explicitly supported.
This thread might be going slightly off the rails. The point of this post is not to tell you that you can’t discuss your concerns or be upset at the political leanings of Lemmy devs. The point was to ask people to stop requesting we fork because of their political ideology.
I was just saying that it’s something we might want to know before we make a decision of using this.
just to be clear: the decision has been made here. we’ve been here for a year and a half and have weighed this information in being here. there is neither a compelling argument for moving nor a realistic plan to do so even if there was a compelling argument, and that is the specific point of the post. if you disagree with that, then this is simply a “put up with it or leave” thing.
I meant that as a user(in hindsight, join would be far more appropriate), not as the whole beehaw itself.
Criticism is always warranted for things. But let’s be real - having devs that stan the ccp for software that is, keep in mind, highly decentralized is low risk for the overall development of the platform for anyone worried. If we’re talking ethics of it, I’d say buying chocolate bars from nestle is probably a greater evil in the scheme of things than developing software with tankies.
Personally, I always feel when people freak out over ccp aligned people, it’s quite a bit of a double standard, and a lot of the time, it’s clear there’s some other equally nationalistic sympathies at play. Half of social media in general is used for propagandizing, and I don’t think any country has its hands anywhere near clean. Hell, half of American media would blacklist people for talking out against the Iraq war not that long ago. Every place has its bias. Purity testing over something like that for a whole framework just doesn’t make sense.
Authoritarians and authoritarian sympathizers should be called out at every opportunity, but the actions have to make sense
The issue with China is that it’s powerful enough to be a serious threat to those living outside its borders. Few deny that the Khmer Rouge are horrible, but people not near Cambodia aren’t afraid of them like they are of the CCP.
it’s powerful enough to be a serious threat to those living outside its borders
Thank you for differentiating why china is such a big problem and US, UK etc are not. This is unique to china.
Oh wait…
Its like babys first time on wikipedia dive in this thread.
Never said anything of the sort. Plenty of innocent people have plenty of reason to fear the US, much to my shame as an American.
I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak
You probably already are. The Nazis did a lot of extremely unethical medical experiments on human subjects, the results of which have been kept and used in medical research and development ever since. They also did a lot of atomic energy research, and the US wasted no time in recruiting those researchers.
Although it is certainly tempting to throw out the data from Nazi human experiments in particular, I can think of a pretty compelling reason not to: if we do, then those people will have died for nothing.
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I feel that is different because that has the hate injected into the product itself. As far as I am aware, the Lemmy codebase has no mention of China or communism anywhere, it’s just code.
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I’m fully aware of that. I think my country wouldn’t even exist if it weren’t for, for example, the fertilizer made by notorious Nazi scientist whose name I cannot remember. I’m just saying that we should be aware of it.
Not only that, but tons of advancements in female healthcare in the US was made because doctors often experimented on black female slaves with the permission of their owners. Obviously, these women did not consent, and you can surmise how horrifying this is.
You can enjoy the benefits of more advanced healthcare for women in many areas now because of the results of these without being complicit in these histories or endorsing the way they came about.
The knowledge and tools we now have can be used to make things better and use them to further good causes, despite their orgins. That does not put blood on your hands.
I think the point is better made wrt operation paperclip than the human “experimentation”. I do not think the latter turned out to be very useful. Their “experiments” were often along the lines of, “if we inject poinson into the eyeball of one twin, what happens to the other twin?” And other questions no one was asking. Afaik the most prominent “contribution” of nazi medical science post ww2 was the drug thalydimide.
Aside from the ethics i think it is really too generous to attribute to these particular methods of “research” much benefit. It gives the impression that if science wasnt so bogged down with IRB paperwork, theyd really be able to get stuff done… when in fact the opposite is true. People who are given a free pass to do whatever without accountability to humanity generally produce trash even from a very utilitarian pov.
I would not want to use any tools developed by nazi freak at the same time.
I would not use such a tool if it brings them and their ideology funding or other benefits, but if I can use it for my purposes(which are likely not evil or harmful) without contributing to their cause, then I would.
If the tool can be used for good, then should it be ignored just because of the political inclinations of the creator?
You’re using it right now without contributing to their cause.
Indeed.
Well, I haven’t seen the comments(or screenshots. Doesn’t seem to be shared) of the creator of lemmy, so I’m sort-of neutral on the matter.
Is it really that huge of a difference? He’s practically more fascist than communist, and it’s been know for at least 4 years, when he got banned from /r/socialism
https://raddle.me/f/lobby/96713/heads-up-the-tankie-behind-lemmy-ml-got-banned-from-r
There are links to donate to the developer right at the bottom of every page on beehaw. If that doesn’t show explicit support, I don’t know what does.
Modlog Instances Docs Code Join Lemmy
Where’s the donate?
There’s also a heart at the top of every page that links directly to a donation page, but I suppose that also doesn’t count.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. If we wished to change this without forking the software that we use, can you help explain to me how we might accomplish removing this link in a sustainable way?
It might be easiest to just hide it in the css.
I don’t really get the rules about code sharing with agpl. To me it would be public simply by existing on your site. Everyone can right click and view source. I would ask a lawyer or at least a dev with experience with agpl license.Oh wow this person literally has not even taken the time to find out the licensing logistics required to enact their plan. Quel surprise.
Docs Code And Join all have donate links
Okay so two links deep, on websites we don’t control and connected to useful docs. I don’t really think that justifies support but you’re welcome to your own opinion. 💜
The platform is a tool, a tool that we can use for free and for good.
And it’s open source as well so we can make sure that biases that the person may have programmed into it (intentionally or not*) can be found and removed.
The more I’ve learned about FOSS over the years the more I love it. And learning about the new stuff behind federated sites is pretty cool.
- Programming biases are a really interesting thing to study, especially unintentional programming biases which happens all of the time.
Bravo, I couldn’t care less about the historical context of the tool. I do care deeply that we have no hate.
I like this post! I follow some people elsewhere who are mostly hyping up kbin because the main developer of Lemmy is a tankie and the main developer of kbin maybe isn’t - but it’s such a weird thing to apply a purity test to. Other comments mentioned it but Lemmy is FOSS, so even if you disagree with the political leanings of the developers, you are totally free to do what you want with it. Barring the presence of any backdoors (which would likely/hopefully be caught because, again, FOSS) the main developers don’t have access to any instances created with the software. I don’t really understand the concern.
Now, if there’s a functional concern with the Lemmy platform and how it’s being developed, then yeah, that’s when a fork should be looked at. It shouldn’t be looked at by an individual community (with a lack of people who can help), but a more widespread effort. But forking because the “lead” developer doesn’t match your purity test? Nah.
Personally I have a very poor opinion of tankies, but that doesn’t really affect how I use Lemmy…unless all the good instances are taken over by them. I find the obsession with effectively random people who don’t actually have that much influence over individual instance moderation a purity obsession.
I didn’t even know what a tankie was before today.
I follow some people elsewhere who are mostly hyping up kbin because the main developer of Lemmy is a tankie and the main developer of kbin maybe isn’t - but it’s such a weird thing to apply a purity test to. Other comments mentioned it but Lemmy is FOSS
Actually Kbin is FLOSS too: https://github.com/ernestwisniewski/kbin
After a buzz over to Hexbear, I find the strain of far-left over there that is more concerned with backbiting and defending former-communist and current parody-communist regimes because blind ‘if west bad, not west good’ thinking, than any of the useful zones of leftist activity.
I didn’t observe anything that was explicitly hate-speech in my 15 minutes buzzin’ around, but it didn’t really feel ‘kind’, if you know what I mean. I get why Beehaw isn’t federated with them. For the record, I am a deeply left-person. I do think that stating “Beehaw has no specific political affiliation” to be somewhat naive. Midnight fueled thoughts incoming.
If Beehaw is “explicitly a safe space for minorities”, then we must ask “Why do we need a safe space for minorities?”, “Where does this need come from?” all of which begs questions about power, hierarchy, control, the sources and motive of hate and oppression, and a dozen other related questions that will each need some meaningful response. This leaves you with a couple of choices.
- We become horribly reductionist (and naive) and just handwave and say “Because we need kindness, and there is hate.” But then, why are we in need of kindness, why is there hate? Why do we need more love? Different hole, same warren. This route I think trips you up in the “unable to explain the issues themselves.” You might retreat to the escape hatch of “focused on politics”, but ignoring something so pervasive and in-your-face as politics is a conscious and focused political act. People who ignore politics are some of the most deeply political people on the planet. There is no escape from politics.
- The other option: We confront and grapple with the beast, and reach conclusions, answers, and stances to the best of our ability about these issues that lie at the heart of a community’s formation, what we want for it and for people. This is basically the formulation of an ideology or identity. Maybe not a concrete one, but one that will broadly align with some subset population and unalign with another. Maybe this doesn’t quite fit with Beehaw’s vision of community, but at its most over-simple, a community basically defined by both who is in, and who is out, and the nature of those assertions.
Bullet 1 is (in my opinion) unsustainable; it will present a nice facade for a time, but eventually people and events will make people dig, and dig, and dig. Some of these incidents will put people in a place where they won’t have clarity and purity that comes from deliberate soul-searching, but will be wrapped up in moments of fear, panic, hate, outrage, and other emotions that will bias the rudder towards things the admin may find unpleasant. People come to strange and often harmful choices and beliefs when they don’t have a wellspring of strength to draw from, and instead have to find it in the moment, or as is often the case, give in to the storm (excuse the purple here. It’s late as hell for me). I think this is evident in just about every major online community of the past.
So as I run out of energy: I think you start thinking about some broad stances, or people here will start thinking of them for you. That “we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are” may be a dangerous sign that there isn’t really a pulse on the kind of community you’re building, and are accidentally just throwing together a place where people gather.
So as I run out of energy: I think you start thinking about some broad stances, or people here will start thinking of them for you. That “we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are” may be a dangerous sign that there isn’t really a pulse on the kind of community you’re building, and are accidentally just throwing together a place where people gather.
well, the we don’t know here should mostly be understood as a very literal and very to the point statement of facts. we have 10,000 users when two weeks ago we had 700. we haven’t run a survey and most of the people here are new. we’re working on a survey to kind of get an idea of basic demographics; as far as what kind of community we want from a moderator side of this we already have a bunch of mods on the same page about what we want and how we want to do it. we are very aware of all the headaches that community building involves. this is stuff we’ve spent a year thinking about on here (and probably at least another year before the community was created) and now we get to put what we thought into practice and see how it goes.
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Just took a stroll over by hexbear to see what you’re talking about. To be honest, I really don’t see those folks being pro-state communism. They are pretty clearly just anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist, and very much see them as being much more anarcho communism aligned than anything.
Is there widespread claims of them talking hate speech other than bitching about liberals? Hexbear seems annoying in the sense that they are extremely sarcastic and bitter. Then again, I’m a syndicalist myself, so I do agree with a lot of their points, but just hate that kind of /r/completanarchy style of board where it’s clear everyone has a mix of major depression, anger, and trust issues, and everyone goes around enabling eachother.
As for the rest of your post, I don’t think a message board needs to have a political ideology per se - in fact, I think it’s better to not have one. The admin team itself should disagree with one another to an extent imo. Specific communities might work with one cohesive set of ideology, but the instance itself should just have general rules imo, especially since a lot of instances seem to focus mainly on general topics. Anti-hatespeech rules in general cover a lot of ground in keeping conversation genuine.
The pulse of communities is not agreement, it’s discussion. It’s not kindness that’s needed, it’s good faith. Telling a TERF or a Nazi to fuck off isn’t kind, but oh well it’s warranted as they don’t post in good faith. I don’t think the admins need to do anything more than that.
And if people start to assume mass political bias, oh well, they can start their own instance
Completely agree on the notion of the community needing “good faith” over “kindness”.
A discussion forum loses much of its value when even a modest percentage of its userbase isn’t participating in a free exchange of ideas, but rather evangelising their favorite ideas or beliefs by abusing the tools provided by the forum in bad faith to promote or suppress ideas that respectively support or contradict their ideology.
It’s one thing to present your contradictory/minority beliefs with supporting evidence to the forum in the hopes it stands on its own, and quite another to coordinate w/ others or create alt accounts to invade that forum and create an illusion of consensus through voting/commenting accordingly.
It doesn’t matter whether the ideology is white supremacy, communism, or even something apolitical like preferring Linux over Windows – astroturfing and bad faith interactions of any allegiance are toxic to a discussion forum.
Hot (maybe not?) take that I suspect may be in line with your thinking here: Acknowledging a community’s political trends and Striving to build a community that includes people that may not align with the majority trends do not have to be mutually exclusive.
“Beehaw” as in the institution that maintains the community may not necessarily seek to brand itself as politically affiliated, but “Beehaw” as in the word and spirit of the law of the land will inevitably appeal to a particular audience, just as any community’s policies would whether intentionally or not, and “Beehaw” as in the people that make up the community are going to have political leanings within it—that’s just the plain and simple nature of people having opinions they bring along with them.
I can’t speak for @Gaywallet nor Beehaw leadership at large, but @alyaza slipped right in as I was about to say: it wouldn’t surprise me if “we do not know what the political leanings of most of our users are” is less speaking literally and more along the lines of “we’d rather allow the lay user describe their political leaning than we prescribe a political leaning on them.” I suppose a census is in order when the dust settles a bit more 🤓.
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Trends and Leanings aside, I think the most important role leadership can take here is to make sure this is a space that not only allows the lay user community to define itself, but allows users to also go against that grain. I suspect we’re making progress toward Door #2 rather than #1. It’s absolutely worth emphasizing that kind of conversation remains important, however. Not necessarily as something that’s prescriptive like guidelines, but at minimum as a conversation the likes of “This is what the community typically seems to value, this is what it typically seems to protest. This is what seems to average out as its strengths, and these are its blindspots. What are we doing right, and how might we better ourselves to help make A More Perfect Community?”
I think you’re right to point out that a community is always the sum of its parts. Voices will surface within the community and voice themselves. Part of managing a community is making sure that none of these voices end up drowning out or censoring the voices of others. We have a very different style of moderating here, and we encourage the community to have lots of discussions with itself as a means of moderation.
The main point of your post seems to be that you’re arguing that we must tackle certain issues because they are so pervasive in our society. I would ask you this… why? There are spaces on the internet which cater to hyperspecific niches. For example, I might create a space where I only allow people to post pictures of their cats. The cat pictures can’t have any edited text on top of them and it’s impossible to leave comments. Is this a political stance? Must this place somehow still become a space to debate politics? I think it’s fairly easy to recognize that no, this is simply just a space for people to share pictures of their cats.
The scope of this website and community is admittedly much larger than this hypothetical cat picture spot, but it doesn’t matter how big the scope is. We can choose what we focus on and what we allow. We could ban all politics, but we didn’t feel that was necessary. Will the sum of all voices in our political spaces be representative of our community? On some level, yes, but if on average orange cats are most posted in the hypothetical cat community does that signal a superiority for orange cats or a leaning towards orange cats? No, some people post black cats too, and that’s representative of the space we’re looking to have here. Yes, you’re right to point out that human speech is more complex than pictures absent text and we need to be wary of political leanings creating an echo chamber or explicitly discouraging other voices but I’ve already addressed this and similar issues a few times in my other philosophy posts (this is a long discussion to have and a worthy one, but this is not the space for that right now).
We aren’t taking a stance on which cat is superior because we are wholly uninterested in doing so. We are interested in having a space absent on hate speech, so that’s what we don’t allow. It just so happens that hate speech overlaps to some degree with nearly all political ideologies and this post was about clarifying that point.
Hopefully not repeating things others have said…
- Thanks for taking the time to write long thoughtful posts explaining the admin thinking, rather than just “we have decided X, live with it” posts.
- It seems entirely appropriate to me for the admins to set the tone of this instance, through explicit rules, through deciding who to add as a user and who to make a mod, and through deciding which other instances to federate with. Anybody who disagrees can always start their own instance. That you’re opening a coffee shop doesn’t mean anyone can come in without shirt and shoes (bad analogy like all analogies).
- It’s entirely possible that I (older white male with plenty of income raised in a homegeneous white suburb) have some opinions that would be appropriate on one of those defederated instances but not here. I can always make an account over there if I feel the need to post those opinions. Likewise, if someone on a defederated instance wants to post here and can behave themselves according to the house rules, they can create an account here. This doesn’t seem like a huge burden to impose on anyone.
- During a long career as a software developers, just about every successful fork I can recall came about because a majority of a project’s developers (not its users!) decided they had to leave a dysfunctional project. Until/unless Lemmy gets to that point it seems pretty silly to me to talk about forking the codebase.
This is what I have failed to understand about people seemingly worried about this instance wanting to be a safe space. If they do not like it, they can just jump to another instance.
“Safe space” also doesn’t have to mean milquetoast or self-censoring. I’m new to this particular community, but I expect there are all manner of topics that any of us could discuss passionately without being jerks. Reading the description of the founding ethos of this community suggested only that I make a commitment to being decent and that I respect the dignity and celebrate the validity of others who aren’t like me. I don’t see anything in there about restricting vigorous discussions about tax policy or guns or whatever the day’s hot topic is as long as you’re decent about it and start from the assumption that people can disagree in good faith.
Sounds very reasonable to me.
On mostly subbed to Bewhaw communities with some Lemmy.world and one or two lemmy.ml so far and I haven’t noticed ant nastiness anywhere else so far. If it would start becoming common I’d just cut ties with those communities or maybe even all communities from a specific instance if it’s gone that far.
I’m hopeful that Beehaw will stay wholesome and probably most other instances as well.
It would be kind if neatto have the ability to personally block instances as well as communities in the future but so far it’s not needed. Plus I’m sure our administration would cut ties with instances that manage to actually turn bad.
If anyone is really bothered by the creators of Lemmy and don’t want to use their product there are always kbib I suppose? When their federation is working again you should be able to sub to all your favorite lemmy communities there too right?
So… not sure what my point with this post is except that I’m happy with the current situation.
Here’s to bees! 🍻
