Looks like KBin has an edge over Lemmy now in terms of monthly active users.
It’s obviously a pretty silly thing, and is not in any way indicative of which project is “better” or more “long-term viable” or anything — instances of both federate with one another, and with the rest of fedi, so it’s all one happy family.
That said, it’s notable. KBin is a relative newcomer to the “Reddit-like fedi instance” game, and also does not have the tankie baggage.
Anyway, the more, the merrier!
KBin: https://the-federation.info/platform/184
Lemmy: https://the-federation.info/platform/73
Discussion on fedi: https://mstdn.social/@rysiek/110527049024028986
That mstdn.social and the whole “lemmy = tankie” (whatever the fuck that means) is doing a disservice to the whole unreddit movement. I have seen plenty of discussion on reddit now of people not leaving because of these posts…
I did not say “lemmy = tankie”, I said Lemmy has certain tankie baggage, and that is in fact true. The developers are pretty clearly tankies, they also run a strictly tankie instance (Lemmygrad; many Lemmy instances do not federate with it).
Pretending this is not the case is not going to help in the long run. It might slow down the “unreddit” movement now, but I’d wager a bet it will make it more long-term viable and resilient, if people understand that choice of instance is important (there are quite a few great Lemmy instances that I would recommend wholeheartidly, like BeeHaw), and that there are alternative, independent implementations on Threadiverse (like Kbin).
Can you provide a source to your claim that lemmygrad is ran by Nutomic or Dessalines?
It used to be deployed on the same IP address as lemmy.ml. I don’t have the receipts. Take it or leave it.
What I don’t get is, I don’t see how that’s a reason to be concerned about Lemmy when the whole point is that there’s no central control over instances, which literally anyone can spin up, and instances can communicate / ban each other as they please.
I do indeed use a Lemmy instance that is not aligned with tankie politics. That being said, I am also acutely aware that technology is political and developers of a given piece of software make decisions based on their personal politics, sometimes even without knowing it. So it is important, I feel, to be aware of that.
Technically speaking, you are completely right. The problem is that the negative association rubs off on the project regardless of the factual context. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter whether the political views of the developers influence the political direction of the software. The association that sticks is: Lemmy is the one with the Stalinist developer.
Exactly.
It’s analogous to the way that Reddit knowingly allowing some subs to exist repelled some users.
Most were able to get past it and simply not subscribe to subs they found objectionable, but I’m sure many people just stayed away once they learned that certain subs existed and were very much known about by Reddit admins.
One key difference here is the way that your instance is able to enforce rules and to some extent influence and filter your user experience, and that’s worth consideration too.
I’m also curious if and how an instance like lemmy.ml can, for example, delete comments, ban users, take down content in cases of cross-instance interaction. Could the admins of lemmy.ml, for example, ban a user from another instance from Lemmy completely? From their local communities? Could they remove that person’s comments? Can they prevent their own users from seeing content they don’t like on other instances? Can they moderate content from their users that is posted to communities on other instances?
It’s analogous to the way that Reddit knowingly allowing some subs to exist repelled some users.
Let’s be absolutely clear about that:
For years (2008-2011), Reddit hosted forums for pedophiles to share “legal” pictures of young girls for other pedophiles’ erotic entertainment.
For years, Reddit hosted forums for misogynistic men to encourage one another to perpetrate violence against women; for racists to promote and plan violence against black people; etc.
I will choose to leave it. Thank you.
No prob.
I can understand where mstdn.social is coming from and it is an “uneasy” situation. But the fact is that you have a choice here in which with whom you communicate.
The irony though of Reddit discussing to stay on Reddit and actually comply with the Autocratic leadership it has.
This is great. It suddenly feels like the internet of 2003 again, with small communities popping up, competition and less of a corporate chokehold. Only this time they have a shared login and crosstalk, which was sorely lacking back then. If we are lucky this event might establish a stable, new part of the internet, which is separate from the consolidated platforms. The Fediverse doesn’t have to replace sites like reddit, just be a next step for people fed up with the corporate net (corponet?).
This is actually more like a return to the 90s of Usenet and mailing lists imho.
Maybe its just Nostalgia, but ill take that. Where you actually go to a place that has something to do with what your looking for, rather then a giant, centralized site where random people pop in, talk crap, and pop out.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking all day that’s it is like Usenet 2.0 in a way. Back when Usenet actually had enthusiast conversation happening on it.
I don’t really care. I’m on Lemmy but fuck it, as long as it gets people off Reddit, competition can be a good thing in this space.
Metallica and Megadeth are historically successful bands, but Metallica would have never made it if Mustaine stayed.
competition can be a good thing in this space.
Absolutely, that’s why I am celebrating Kbin existing and being used.
Megadeth would have never made it either!
As I understand both make the greater platform bigger, more Kbin users means more Lemmy content as well.
Imagine competition being mutually beneficial!
Sorry guys, kbin is built on PHP.
So even if it did succeed, it won’t be for long.
If history has taught me anything - I would say that means that kbin will persist forever.
I mean, almost half of all the websites on the internet is built on WordPress, so maybe you’re onto something here…
I think people get way too caught up on technical optimisation issues with a language.
The reason a language, programming or otherwise, catches on is ultimately based on how many people use the language. So the lower the barrier to entry, they more people who will use it. PHP has a pretty low barrier to entry to creating a website (however simple/bad) and it has a lot of cultural momentum. I don’t see PHP going away anytime soon.
Yeah ‘built in $language’ literally only matters from the point of view of attracting volunteer devs, end users couldn’t care less as long as the platform works. Lemmy and Kbin could be written in Malbolge for all they cared as long as it loads properly and doesn’t annoy them.
While I wouldn’t start a new PHP project myself as it’s yet another language to juggle and not one I’m particularly interested in it’s a perfectly legitimate choice even in 2023.
I know this is a joke, but not only is KBin built on PHP, but so are Facebook, Pornhub, and Wikipedia.
Well if Pornhub is built in it, then I am down with it (quite obvious/jk)
I’m sure there’s some php still around at Facebook, but I doubt any new php projects have been started in 10+ years at any of those organizations.
You’d be surprised. Modern PHP with Laravel can actually be quite nice to work with.
I’m sure it is, and I hear good things about Laravel, but you’re still working under some really bad decisions made in the past. That’s always the problem with great frameworks on bad languages: the frameworks are great, but you can’t escape the past.
I’d point you to r/lolphp, but well, you know.
.wtf?! I just frowned at my monitor
There’s more where that came from.
Let’s not hate on tools. Php has its uses and has been proven to be useful in commercial applications. So has Rust. They are different but the choice of programming language means nothing for the core project.
I, too, can use a banana to hammer in a nail
hahah, this made me laugh. I will be stealing this from you.
To be a bit more verbose, I don’t think all programming languages are created equal, and its a disservice to pretend it is.
Duck Duck Go was written in Perl. GitHub (originally) in Ruby on Rails.
They’re tools only because they’re general purpose programming languages. The real path to success is in choosing a tool that you’re good at using (no matter how blunt), rather than pretending all tools are equal.
Sure but dissing on languages you don’t like will only make devs who like those languages defensive. Not every dev is good only at languages you’re good at.
Fair, but for me, both Rust and Php mean I won’t be customizing or contributing much to the project.
The repo’s contributor archetype will change based on the language too. What language would you be comfortable in contributing with?
Modern PHP is supposed to be a decent language these days rather than a collection of footguns so I wouldn’t write it off out of hand. It wouldn’t be my first choice of language but it still runs huge swathes of the web, interesting choice for a greenfield project though. What it will mean is it’ll be harder for Kbin to attract developers on a voluntary basis I think, if I’m giving my time for free I’d personally much rather spend it writing Rust than PHP even if PHP is decent these days.
Yeah, I generally prefer kbin’s UI over lemmy’s but given the backend is in PHP I have concerns that it might not be able to scale effectively with its growth.
Not saying that PHP is a complete showstopper but there are valid concerns in terms of maintainability…
Can you explain this in simple terms for simple minds like mine? And I only ask for other people like me who may wonder but not ask
There is a “rumor”/“running joke” in the programming community that PHP application is hard to maintain.
Primarily, because it is originally designed to whip up a website in a quick and dirty way, hence the original name “personal homepage”.
Where as rust (which is what Lemmy is built upon) is a much more modern language with more safe guard in place to help scaling the application.
Obviously, like many people pointed out there are many larger project is built by PHP. However, many larger companies have the resources build significant extension to PHP to make it more usable, like Facebook’s hhvm and hack language are both tools that revolve around PHP. This is a luxury not enjoyed by smaller projects like kbin, Lemmy, even mastodon.
My personal opinion is that PHP is not a great language, but language is just a tool; it is mostly up to the programmer to write maintainable program in a language. For example, python is probably one of the less principled language out there (for example, it’s variable scoping is very confusing); yet if the programmer programs in a manner to avoid these disadvantages, they can still build fast and maintainable project with it.
Cool, thanks! I only have experience with JavaScript and Python, and I personally prefer JS because Python has been confusing to me. But, I have heard Python is more efficient and easier in the long-term.
After ‘mastering’ JS to a sufficient ability I will put my efforts towards Python. I am stumped as to why I feel JS is easier than Python when I have also heard the opposite; that python is easier than JS
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Ahm, no ;)
Both JS and Python are neither efficient nor easier in the long-term. They are both languages that were primarily built to make quick-and-dirty small and simple programs/scripts.
Both are really slow and inefficient (though Python is much slower than JS nowadays). Both are dynamic languages which opens then up for all sorts of dirty hacks and are pretty negative for maintainability.
Because of that, both languages have unofficial typing support (Typescript and Mypy) to make programs in these languages somewhat maintainable.
If you are looking for performance, the first tier is natively compiling languages like C/C++/Rust/Go. The second tier are languages that compile to bytecode and run on heavily optimized runtime environments like anything running on the JVM or C# or therelike. And the worst tier are super dynamic languages like JS or Python.
In terms of what’s easiest, it really depends on what you’re doing to be honest. Like, if you’re a data scientist, you want to learn Python. If you’re a web developer, you want to learn JavaScript - I believe that Wasm is the future of the web, but we’re going to have traditional HTML/JavaScript for decades to come.
Oh, I didn’t know this, I appreciate the insight. I have been working with typescript a bit, but sidestepped back to JS for a small project because of familiarity. My next project may be typescript just to get a feel for it.
I have heard a lot of buzz about rust, but I haven’t looked it up because I don’t want to overwhelm myself with new things. But it does seem very popular. And I doubt there’s anyone, even people unfamiliar with code, who hasn’t heard of the C family!
I’m not giving up JS, since it is so popular for web development, but it does make me sad that it’s so inefficient for other tasks in comparison to the other languages. Butz it also makes me kind of excited to get into some of the meatier stuff
A lot of people seem to be talking about whether PHP has enough developer support, but that isn’t the main issue.
The issue is that code written in PHP is probably at least 10 times less efficient in terms of CPU and memory than the equivalent code written in Rust.
This means that loads of hobbyist developers will be able to run lemmy instances for a fraction of the ongoing cost of kbin.
And the main issue Reddit and a migration has is server costs. So, it could be running into a face plant.
Lemmy.World instance has a new dedicated host with EPYC 7502P around €200-€300 a month with 15k users aboard. If PHP is even x2 as inefient that’s absolutely insane. Those prices may be off but even so, shits going to cost and we all need to participate.
Urgh… php.
Rust or die…
Is php as bad as it wad previously?
No. It’s not perfect by any means but it’s leaps and bounds ahead of where it was.
Quite the opposite. A poor technology choice is a lasting technology choice.
Are there any sites in the Fediverse written in .net? I’d like to contribute to these sites, but I haven’t touched PHP in over a decade.
The cloudflare protection of their main instance is breaking federation right now, which is a bit annoying. I hope this will be resolved soon.
Just note that kbin.social currently has Cloudflare DDoS protection enabled which is breaking federation. Until this is removed, the communities are seperate.
I’ve got my lemmy instance proxied through cloudflare. It can work if you make it work. It does take a page rule to get around some of the bot detection nonsense.
It may be worth passing that rule/config over to @[email protected]
The captcha bot detector thing seems to be making it wonkier.
Thanks, I just made a test post and could not figure out why they were not in sync.
There are other instances, like https://fedia.io/ for example.
Good to know, I was wondering why I couldn’t see any kbin stuff here
Great news to me I’m not “pro-lemmy”, I am “anti-reddit”.
Same! I use a Lemmy instance myself. I’m just happy to see there is diversity in terms of software projects in the Threadiverse.
“Threadiverse” – i really like that :)
I wish I came up wit it myself! Sadly no, noticed it in a few threads over the last few days.
Humans are amazing.
I hope I just witnessed the beginning of something we’ll casually use in a few years.
“Tankie baggage?”
Lemmy devs are tankies.
I keep hearing similar things, but not a single person has linked to a comment or anything the devs have actually said.
Where can I read about this? I want to see what they said.
I don’t see much proof there outside of some “this definitely happened” type thing. Not that I don’t believe them but that’s not the strongest proof.
Heh, I just used another instance throught doubt just in case. They’re overloaded anyway. Code doesn’t have a political opinion (well, licences might), and other instances don’t show signs of what the commi instance is being accused off as far as I can tell
the devs don’t even deny it, they’ve posted to reddit, but that’s gone now.
Here is some evidence, not proof but a strong lead: Lemmy documentation . In paragraph 6+7 or so.
To me that looks like a fairly non-controversial perspective amongst leftists and communists (especially internationally). But that’s just my (communist) perspective.
The authors do clearly NOT “endorse, defend, or deny the crimes” by communist leaders in this text. They might however “have a bias in favor of authoritarian communist states, such as the People’s Republic of China” Yes, I just cited the definitions from Wikipedia. Maybe it is not a strong lead as I have said. Just one lead? I also heard that the two instances Lemmy.ml and lemmygrad were hosted on the same place. But this is hearsay and I am to lazy to confirm or disprove it.
I suspect both the tankie, extreme right and left wing content is being suppressed by the slew of new content being posted now. And that shit not getting the votes it needs to be seen anymore.
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It’s funny seeing a communist use the word tankie unironically
It’s not weird for ancoms to say it, we say it all the time.
I mean, there are very different flavors of communist, so it kind of makes sense. You can believe in communal ownership of all non-personal property without supporting the violent oppression of dissent.
I think it mainly comes down to the project landing page being more friendly and the UI being more polished.
The landing page of join-lemmy.org doesn’t show what the website looks like. The only screenshots are of code and github. That section is geared towards potential instance administrators, not potential users.
I tried kbin but it currently slow as hell at least for me. It definitely is more inviting with its design though.
The lack of app for KBin kills it for me.
I have a account with KBin and I may use it as well if there’s an app
On Android, you can add it to your home screen and it functions kind of like an app… it could definitely benefit from a native app, though.
Nobody is going to fly with mobile browser these days. It’s App or die in this regard.
The biggest social media sites have apps. It’s suicide. Heck, the reason these sites are having the mass infux is because Reddits app sucks. If it was amazing nobody would of really cared and the spez drama wouldn’t have happened.
Just my 2c.
/cries in iOS
God, what I would give for Apollo to rip the Reddit API guts out and refit with Lemmy’s. He open sourced it so I’m sure someone will.
Didn’t he open source the server backend? Not the app
Server backend stuff was to contradict the Reddit CEOs claims about Apollo being inefficient on the API.
Would be hilarious if all the third party reddit clients updated at the same time to connect to a completely new board.
You can do the whole ‘add to home screen’ and it sort of functions like an app in iOS.
But kbin looks fine in browser on iOS? Actually, I’m really happy I don’t have to download another app to use it.
Yeah an official app would be great.
Even a fork of Jerboa or something could be a start!
Huh i thought jabora would be able to log into it
Anyone know what lemmy API is used by Jerboa?
There is mention of a kbin-mobile using Flutter/Dart on the code site, but no code.
Checkout Hermit on Android. It’s an app that turns web applications into standalone apps with a bunch of great features like adblocking, scripting, frameless mode etc. I use it for Beehaw as well.
I am on both and kbin seems less active.
Perhaps the numbers are counted different?
lemmy might be counting people who have posted this month and kbin might be counting anyone who has visited the site.
Big respect to all the devs for handling this growth so well.
lemmy might be counting people who have posted this month and kbin might be counting anyone who has cisited the site.
The data is from The-Federation.info, and the idea is that the metric is about users whose accounts were active over the last month. I think “active” in both cases means “has logged in recently”.
Big respect to all the devs for handling this growth so well.
Absolutely. Sending all the hugs and good vibes, the Big Wave has not even started yet, I think.
Looking at my own very small instance, Lemmy doesn’t seem to consider “logged in” as active. I currently have 8 users online and 3 users/month.
yea, kbin is definitely less active
in the short term we have a few upcoming critical mod tool launches we need to nail
Umm, you really should have launched this before shutting down the current tools mods use.
They’ve been promising better mod tools for years
They are totally right around the corner though, and won’t be a buggy mess at all!
Just took a look at the stats on The-Federation.info and looks like Lemmy is doing just fine.
Lemmy Stats: 162 Nodes 90,053 Users 277,427 Posts 610,007 Comments
Kbin Stats: 7 Nodes 5,960 Users 3,992 Posts 4,844 Comments
I just noticed the same thing. I do not see a stat that shows kbin is overtaking lemmy.
Oh I am not saying it is not doing fine. I just found it super-interesting that a much younger project got ahead, even if perhaps only temporarily, as far as active users are concerned.
Honestly, many people are turned off by Lemmy tankies. I myself though I’d never come back to Lemmy until I found beehaw.
Honestly, many people are turned off by Lemmy tankies.
I keep hearing people commenting about that, but so far I haven’t noticed any particular tankie-ish influence.
Maybe I’m just not choosing the communities where they hang out?
The problem is lemmy.ml From what I get, a lot of the old guard (before the Reddit exodus) are talkies. That includes the admins and mods. And Lemmy.ml was or still is the biggest instance because people automatically choose the server of the Lemmy devs (Because many people don’t understand the concept of federation).
Lemmy.ca blocks lemmygrad just like Beehaw so you can’t see anything from the biggest tankie community on Lemmy.
You can see this here https://lemmy.ca/instances
So for those of us that do t have any association or federation with the “tankie lemmy”, there shouldn’t be any taint, right?
Yeah, there shouldn’t be posts/comments to the communities that block Lemmygrad and in those that can like lemmy.ml’s communities - I believe that you can’t see them.
Would kbin’s current non-federation because of cloudflare stuff be stopping the-federation.info from accessing more recent stats?
I believe there was a post by a Kbin hoster that they had to set up a specifc rule in Cloudflare to get around the issue. Although AFAIK I would assume that Cloudflare could definitely be causing some issues for some instances which may not be set up correctly to get around the issue, which in turn could lead to the issue your suggesting. But then again don’t quote me on any of this I’m not a dev for any of the projects, and I’m basing this on my own projects where getting around Cloudflare to scrap data is a complete pain and sometimes more work then it’s worth.
Can someone please explain the “tankie baggage”?
I understand the words, but not the history.A “tankie” is a pejorative word for a Stalinist. (Just in case any readers aren’t familiar with the word?)
Basically lemmy (the project) was started by some Marxist-Leninists who have a soft spot for the CCP and authoritarian communism (really). Lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml actually share the same IP address. And lemmy contributors seem to have lemmygrad accounts.
@feditips, who is a pretty well-respected Fediverse advocate, has recommended against lemmy here and here, with pretty good reasoning.
Having said that, the politics of the authors of the software do not necessarily dictate how you, me, or anyone else choose to run instances.
It’s not a pejorative word for any Stalinist. It’s a pejorative word for a specific type of Stalinist, ie, one that will back any oppressive regime that espouses itself to be Stalinist.
Via Wikipedia:
Tankie is a pejorative label for communists, particularly Stalinists, who support the authoritarian tendencies of Marxism–Leninism or, more generally, authoritarian states associated with Marxism–Leninism in history. The term was originally used by dissident Marxist–Leninists to describe members of the Communist Party of Great Britain who followed the party line of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Specifically, it was used to distinguish party members who spoke out in defense of the Soviet use of tanks to crush the Hungarian Revolution of 1956 and the 1968 Prague Spring uprising, or who more broadly adhered to pro-Soviet positions. The term is also used to describe people who endorse, defend, or deny the crimes committed by communist leaders such as Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot, and Kim il-Sung.
The thread from fefitips makes claims without providing any evidence. They say they “have receipts” and can provide on request, but why not simply post it if it actually existed?
I have no dog in this fight - today is the first time I’ve heard the word “tankie” - but I would take the linked claims with a grain of salt until proof is provided.
Ok, here’s some evidence. There’s two primary/full-time developers of Lemmy. Here’s one’s github page of essays.
If you search that tree, he mentions lemmygrad several times, has a crash course on socialism that points you to “asktankies”, and his FAQ denies several holocausts, including (for example) Stalin’s slaughter of millions of Ukrainians.
Many thanks for the links, that’s great to start a dialogue. I didn’t see anything particularly terrible in my read through the crash course (I might have missed something). In the FAQ I see a link to What about Stalin? Didn’t he kill millions? (Revleft podcast on Stalin), which is an external podcast and I don’t plan to listen to it to find out what it contains. Is there something specific which the developer wrote which you can link to?
Regardless of whether any particular developer is or isn’t a “tankie”, Lemmy the software and Lemmy.ml don’t appear to support any ideologies. Their Code of Conduct specifically states “We are committed to providing a friendly, safe and welcoming environment for all, regardless of level of experience, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, personal appearance, body size, race, ethnicity, age, religion, nationality, or other similar characteristic.”
Please don’t think I am merely arguing or playing devil’s advocate. I have only just started using Lemmy and would prefer to not waste my time on a platform that ultimately I wouldn’t like to be associated with, but so far it feels a bit overblown.
Regarding lemmy.ml as an instance: Dig further into it. They do have a certain ideology.
At any rate, you asked what evidence there is that the devs are tankies. I would simply point out that they describe themselves using exactly that word. And even the official docs are laden with political commentary. Regardless of what you think of their politics, or how much politics is “too much” or outside of your overton window, I don’t think it should be controversial to call them tankies.
Thanks for the links, I will go exploring. And for the record I don’t think it’s controversial to call someone a tankie - as stated today is the first time I’ve heard the word.
Great link, updated the post to link to it. Thank you!
