Let the apologists have a field day in the comments.
What people expect:
✅Fix my box
❎Fuck my shit up
What we would get: System Kernel Interface
🔳 Regex Recursion
🔳 Kernel Language (Internal) [Dropdown: en-us, Dvorak, binary, Klingon, non-binary (Borg analog), Esperanto]
🔳 Ignore LPT on fire
🔳 Memory hole on sysctl
🔳 Mansplain man(8)
I expect a Red x
Yeah some people seem to have this expectation that there should just magically be a button to unbreak the PC. They talk about their personal pain points when using Linux as if there’s a conspiracy of devs to hide the unbreak buttons for the sake of elitism, but that… just isn’t a thing? If it was that easy to fix an issue, you probably wouldn’t need to fix it because the system would already come unbroken by default. I sympathize with everyone’s Bluetooth configuration woes but mostly it’s a pain in the ass because Bluetooth, in general, is a pain in the ass, not because of elitist devs (who I should mention are doing this in their free time for no pay. There’s almost no money in desktop Linux, unlike in servers).
Windows users are used to everything being so locked down that it’s virtually impossible to mess up your system… lots of this stuff is in config files because exposing it for everyday users would be asking for people to completely brick their workflow.
If you put every option in a GUI, there would be so much stuff that nobody could find anything.
I think you just discribed windows I know my head hurts looking at GPOs.
No Windows put everything in a GUI, then added a second GUI that didn’t quite have all the functionality of the first one so kept both around, then despite the second GUI existing for nearly 10 years it still couldn’t do everything the first one could and then they completely redesigned it rather than just introducing all the functionality from the first GUI, but they removed some of the functionality of the second GUI from the first GUI so now both GUIs are incomplete and full of functions that just link to the other GUI
That’s basically Sharepoint. You better bookmark the three different Web pages because they have different options you won’t find on the two other. But also just finding and remembering those three Web pages is a Pita. I or better yet, never have to manage Sharepoint pages. This stuff is worse than printers.
Oh god don’t get me started on SharePoint, I only recently discovered that disabling permission inheritance doesn’t actually disable permission inheritance…
As kludgey as they are, though, I do wish there was a good replacement for GPOs in Linux
There is and it can be mapped to GPOs when connecting to AD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Security_Services_Daemon
As cool as that is, I’m only seeing authentication and rights management, which have little to do with what GPOs do
It’s limited of course https://4sysops.com/archives/applying-group-policy-to-linux-using-sssd/
That’s not just limited, that’s an incredibly tiny bit of user rights assignments, which is an incredibly tiny part of group policy and does nothing to configure the system… It’s useful, but not really what I’m talking about
That’s why you put it in 3, with no rhyme or reason for which goes where
Now we got it only in config files where we can’t find anything. Also don’t you put a single wrong character in there, it could break everything.
Well-made GUIs can even prevent disaster by exposing settings in a diggestable way and making sure entries are properly edited. Good UI/UX conveys functionality through form and can be navigated intuitively.
To make settings inaccessible on purpose or even alienate people deemed “too stupid” for them is called Tech Paternalism, and it fucking sucks.
To make settings inaccessible on purpose or even alienate people deemed “too stupid” for them is called Tech Paternalism, and it fucking sucks.
You’re referring to Windows Registry right?
A well-documented config file is like the exact opposite of “tech paternalism”.
The Linux equivilent of this is atomic/immutable distros (SteamOS and Android being the most popular examples, but Fedora also has one that’s fairly popular).
I don’t care if settings are done by GUI or terminal, I just want clear and concise descriptions for specific settings and not a condescending “go read the man pages you fucking noob”. I’ve been fucking with Linux for over a decade now; a lack of clear documentation is not my problem, and at this point is unacceptable.
Especially when the settings are named the same/similar as other apps but do different things
Just fucking comment line quickly what the fucking thing does you dickheads, or use your settings page for more than 3 things and stop hiding everything else in your fucking .YAML (also Stop using .YAML)
YAML is good for scripting services (like docker stacks), but otherwise I agree, stop using it for absolutely everything.
I also wish Linux used a standardized config file format.
Sounds like you’re gonna love nixos
I actually looked into it, although I didn’t like very much that the config file is actually a program and an odd language. They should have used something commonplace like JSON
At this point, TOML is my favorite since it basically amounts to an attempt at standardizing the
.ini/.confstyle of config “language”/files. It’s still simple enough, but pretty powerful, and was seemingly good for the Rust and Python projects to be convinced to choose it as a default…Absolutely. I was going to suggest TOML as the standardized Linux format as well.
go read the man pages you fucking noob
And when you actually go and read the man page, it says some shit like “Some of these options are not fully documented. For an accurate description of their functionality, consult the source code”
Recursive comments
I’ve been fucking with Linux for over a decade now; a lack of clear documentation is not my problem, and at this point is unacceptable.
Well seems to me that the lack of clear documentation is in fact your problem.
I mean, fucking around for a decade?!
: P
Hey, hey - stop that.
You get a gui?
dwm gang rise up!
*Laughs in CLI.
Also TOML lol
Yeah, I’ve definitely grown to like TOML, especially after spending hours trying to edit a giant (nested) YAML file…
I didn’t realize the indentation in TOML was purely aesthetic.
This
[servers] [servers.alpha] ip = "10.0.0.1" dc = "eqdc10" [servers.beta] ip = "10.0.0.2" dc = "eqdc10"equals this
[servers] [servers.alpha] ip = "10.0.0.1" dc = "eqdc10" [servers.beta] ip = "10.0.0.2" dc = "eqdc10"which equals this
{ "servers": { "alpha": { "ip": "10.0.0.1", "dc": "eqdc10" }, "beta": { "ip": "10.0.0.2", "dc": "eqdc10" } } }Once the file is big enough wouldn’t it be better to convert it to json before editing, then converting it back?
Let the computer deal with indents and all that stuff.
I love this comment. JSON is by far the format that cares the least about being human-readable or -writable, but you’re seriously proposing writing it rather than YAML. And I kind of don’t even really disagree. But a big problem with that strategy is that you won’t find documentation for how to write the configuration in JSON.
I disagree that json is not human writable. JSON is perfectly writable since it has explicit visible separations between elements.
It might look ugly but it’s perfectly readable and writeable.
Granted, I always read json after parsing it with an auto formatter. Maybe that’s why people say that json is difficult to read? It’s true that unformatted json (minified) is way worse than yaml but no one in their right mind would not format the json, specially when it’s natively supported by most code editors.
BTW, about documentation, post formatting json looks very much like a yaml, all yaml docs can be converted to json instructions if you think a little bit.
You should have done the 2nd half in ascii art because terminal ;)
2nd half in raw binary because I use Arch btw.
2nd half in uncompiled source code because gentoo
*openSUSE enters the chatroom
SUSE/openSUSE are the only ones that have it figured out. It requires a lot of polish, but it’s the only distro that seems to really care about a deeper system configuration through GUI, and that’s really appreciated.
dotfile bros:
-what GUI?
Chezmoi my beloved
Oooo… new toy…
Meanwhile i’m using my own silly bash script to symlink all my dotfiles from my repo 🗿
Yeah, and then you start to configure any edge case, and then you’re basically already at the point where chezmoi would be useful. Lol, I’ve been there
Mine uses special folders for ‘all’ or ‘user’, and different folders for symlinking entire folders or single files so the scripts can tell the difference. Had no idea this existed. Thanks!
Could you give an example of that? Cause i’m kinda curious. I have used home manager before when i was using nixos, but when i left i went back to using my script. It was kinda annoying to me how home manager was much slower.
Server (Linux) and personal machine (non-Linux Macbook) with the same general shell config (aliases etc.), but different applications/CLI tools installed.
No idea how it compares against the Nix paradigms, but I like the ease of use in setting up a new machine. It’ll copy all files to their intended destinations and will be able to fill in credentials from templates using e.g.
rbw(third-party Bitwarden, i.e. password manager, CLI tool), meaning, once all fields have been templated, you can make it public without even worrying about leaking a personal email address (I use different ones for git vs. other accounts vs. even other stuff).
Yeah, some distros have GUIs for system settings, like openSUSE and Mageia, but advanced users will often even take that as a reason to not use those distros, because they themselves don’t need that on their system. And because not many advanced users use these distros, it’s hard to recommend them for noobs, because it makes it more difficult to find help resources. Kind of a stupid situation…
“I open bottlecaps with my mouth, so i don’t go to house where they have bottle openers.”
This makes sense, within reason. Limiting the visibility of low level system settings and statistics is good for the normal user’s experience. That is not just to keep them from breaking their system, but it also makes the commonly used settings easier to navigate and use.
I don’t say this in a gatekeeping way either. I am a developer and old computer nerd who has a terminal open pretty much all the time. But I also run Mint and I use the GUI for all kinds of stuff. If I may stretch to make a metaphor, the primary user-friendly UI from the driver’s seat of my car doesn’t have indicators or controls for all kinds of things I care about, but they are things I don’t need to do every day in the middle of a drive. I can do something out of the ordinary to get to them when the need arises.
The nice thing about Linux is that in the GUI these things are merely hidden. They aren’t locked down and denied access entirely like you might get with a commercial OS.
The worthwhile discussion/argument IMO is just where best to draw that line. I personally don’t have strong opinions on the computer side because I am comfortable with CLI and text files. My gut feel is that more GUI is good, but my suspicion is that actual “normie” users want simple. To them the OS is just the screen that holds the icons for their apps, like a smart phone. It is not a gargantuan tree of settings they can peruse like I might.
Funny though, I DO have a strong opinion in the case of my car metaphor. I currently drive an old economy car, and it doesn’t have a coolant temperature gauge. There’s just a warning light for when the coolant is already too hot or is still cold and warming up. The lack of the gauge doesn’t affect the performance of the car and it has not ruined my day in over a decade of ownership, but I’m a bit of a car guy and an engineer to boot, so I want more information like you might see in a truck or sports car.
That’s another nice thing about the open nature of Linux. There isn’t one official setup that everybody gets out of the box, which can be confusing, but it can certainly be made to fit many different people’s needs.
Plasma 6 settings GUI more capable than windows settings idk wym. Only thing I’ve had to edit in the terminal in the last several months has been automount on a hard drive.
Do they support stuff like managing the bootloader or systemd services by now? So far the only thing I ever saw going that deep was OpenSuse’s YaST Settings Suite.
Idk man i just keep my system up to date and call it good for the most part. I COULD dive into low level system stuff but I’ve rarely has a reason to. I do my tinkering in Godot, or off the computer.
Point stands, better interface and more functionality than Windows’ hot mess.
Should note that yes, system stuff like display, fonts, all kinds of other stuff. But super users will always default to command line and there’s always a little issue here and there after certain updates to tinker with.
They aren’t supposed to have every setting tho. It’s mainly focused for average user, power users can figure it out and most prefer CLI anyway. Having too many settings can be intimidating for new users.
Only thing I’ve had to edit in the terminal in the last several months has been automount on a hard drive.
I just use gnome disks for that. Tbh, that’s the only thing I use gnome disks for.
I’ve been using linix for like 18 years and I still prefer GUI over CLI hands down. Make things easy by letting me click on some nicely explained buttons.
“No, honey. We have Linux at home,”
Linux at home:
linix
Sure… Want to fix the stupid new menus in windows 11? Oh it is just a new guid key in the registry in a location you wouldn’t expect. You know just cut and paste shit into the registry you found on the internet. Windows is just as annoying, if not more so.
In any case: what system GUI’s do you want? GUIS make everything so much harder, careful what you wish for.
Does Windows 11 still use the Windows 7 control panel?
They deprecated that to prevent users from messing with things
No, there’s a couple rogue advanced dialogues but the control panel’s finally been well replaced
Ehhhh, you can still get in there. Also there are several control panel only functions. It’s been pretty frustrating how they’ve incremented change. I feel like they should have gone menu by menu in control panel and just built their new settings application page by page and then just pushed one big control panel alternative. Then they could phase the old one out or leave it in for legacy users or whatever. But the new settings and how that menu changes every few months is frustrating as hell.
rip in peace, control panel. will be missed.
Nowdays Windows horse has the same head but it basically never even had a butt at all (or third party butts at some point).
Im usually fine with it but at times whenever I want to enable some obscure setting that isn’t in the normal control panel, there’s at least 3 different gui that kind of accomplish the same task but later on has different side effects depending whether you edited via registry or local group policy
Yeah, when local group policy is essentially needed for a normal home PC usage you know you have a great Windows system (and I don’t even have experience with 11, yet).
What do you need local group policy for?
And a bunch of ads where its balls would be.
The ballsack is prime ad real estate!!
Everyone looks at it & wants to press it - balls don’t lie, the ads must be trustworthy!
12 years ago maybe, plasma made a lot of improvements since then
Can I edit systemd services and bootloader settings somewhere?
Systemdgenie is good enough for me, but that’s just me.
There really aren’t any simple settings for grub that need a GUI and honestly the systemd service CLI for enabling starting and disabling is pretty damn easy
