Except the Ukrainians in Odessa who speak Russian and feel they are Ukranian, fuck those people.
Odessa is not Donbas, it’s a unique impressive area with its own history.
Edit: By I can see both sides, I mean I get the Ukranian fury at Russia etc. But I also understand that the people of Odessa have their own version of what being Ukranian is and means.
Ukrainians (in Odessa or anywhere really) are welcome to use russian (or Gujarati) in private. In the public sphere, the official language is Ukrainian.
I am aware that Odessa is not Donbas. What are you even trying to say?
Your waxing poetical about the russian nature of Odessa just like most russians (not only nationalists, you ever hear this from the alleged opposition).
Fundamentally it is not for you or (or the russians) to decide what the official language is in Ukraine, how we name our streets and how we choose to deal with centuries of russian imperialism.
For you this is purely a theoretical discussion. The reality of the matter is that russian language and culture are a tool of russian genocidal imperialism (just look at the state of say the Komi language, if you even know that such a language exists). To fight russian genocidal imperialism, you need to get rid of russian insignia and russian chauvinist, slave-mentality thinking. And yes, this also means recognizing that Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine and that we have our our great artists and heroes.
I’m saying that when your country is invaded, worrying about respecting the people who’s culture is the same as the invader’s is a great way to get a bunch of fifth columnists. And I’m not sure why you’re not aware of that. Similarly, despite the many British people of German heritage, in 1939, their “unique British-German culture” was not relevant and was not respected and should not have been.
That’s literally calling for genocide? You’re telling a peoples (who are the victims of an invasion) that they cannot have their own culture because it’s similar to an invaders?
No. It literally is not calling for genocide any more than it would be calling for genocide to say that the French should stop teaching kids German in school in Alasace-Lorraine before the Nazis invaded.
Dude France is guilty of serial ethnocide when it comes to languages. Dialectal variation was stamped out, too. No French school taught anything but French at that time, or really ever, and eradication of German was prioritised just as Breton was. Prior German rule was way more even-handed, with French being co-official in French-speaking regions, Nazi rule was as you’d expect, post-war the French continued their policy until 1990. They still haven’t ratified the ECRML.
But I am not talking about post-war. That’s a different issue. A treaty was signed. Hostilities were over. France wasn’t at risk from a fifth column anymore. If the war is over and Ukraine continues this policy, I will change my mind, but this is what is happening during a hot war while they are being invaded by Russians.
Is the Ukraine banning of the Russian Orthodox church a horrible genocidal act too, despite the fact that the Russian Orthodox Church literally blesses Russian nuclear weapons and has ceremonies where they throw holy water on the troops going out to kill Ukrainians?
The Moscow Patriarchate is a direct Kremlin asset. If you ask Constantinople they have no ecclesiastical jurisdiction over Ukraine in the first place, the Kyiv Patriarchate does.
Pushkin isn’t such an asset, the Kremlin can’t tell anyone how to read him and problematise his stance towards Ukrainian rebellion against the Tsar, just as it’s possible to read Kant, problematise his racism, and still get lots of value out of it (especially since racism is incompatible with Kantian ethics).
The Russian language also isn’t such an asset, the Kremlin can’t tell people how to use it, and for what it’s worth the Ukrainian army is to a large degree operating in Russian. Are you proposing that units switch to a language the soldiers aren’t proficient in? Plenty of Russian-speaking soldiers were born before independence they didn’t even learn Ukrainian in school, if born after, they might’ve flunked the subject.
Pushkin statutes? More complicated. For now I’d say put them into storage or build a box around them so that people don’t have to look at them and talk about it after the war, right now the required nuance is a distraction so kick it down the road. Maybe the solution is to move them into a library.
Also FWIW Ukraine did ratify the ECRML. Russian is among 17 recognised minority languages. Being a native Russian speaker and being Ukrainian has never been incompatible, heck Zelensky is one of them. The purported ethnic conflict is a Kremlin narrative. Are we supposed to cancel “Servant of the people” (the series) because it’s mostly Russian. Playlist with ENGSUB btw I highly recommend it.
Not teaching it in school isn’t the same as denying it. No country teaches every language spoken at home in schools.
I suppose if the U.S. invaded Mexico and Mexico banned the U.S. cultural enclaves that had arisen there from celebrating July 4th, that would also be genocide?
Seems like genocide is not all that horrific in your view.
Not teaching the local language in schools, to instead force them to use your own is denying it and it is genocide.
Go to China and look at how they are wiping our local ethnicity through exactly that, they are forcing generations to grow up learning Mandarin in schools, legislating that TV must be in Mandarin, etc. and through this they are causing languages like Cantonese to lose their daily usage and thus die off.
It’s what a large swathe of Europe did during the 19th and 20th century, where local languages (and their corresponding cultures) were basically killed, e.g. everyone in France basically speaks Parisian France, with only Brittany holding out its culture.
Seems like genocide is not all that horrific in your view.
Except the Ukrainians in Odessa who speak Russian and feel they are Ukranian, fuck those people.
Odessa is not Donbas, it’s a unique impressive area with its own history.
Edit: By I can see both sides, I mean I get the Ukranian fury at Russia etc. But I also understand that the people of Odessa have their own version of what being Ukranian is and means.
Ukrainians (in Odessa or anywhere really) are welcome to use russian (or Gujarati) in private. In the public sphere, the official language is Ukrainian.
I am aware that Odessa is not Donbas. What are you even trying to say?
Your waxing poetical about the russian nature of Odessa just like most russians (not only nationalists, you ever hear this from the alleged opposition).
Fundamentally it is not for you or (or the russians) to decide what the official language is in Ukraine, how we name our streets and how we choose to deal with centuries of russian imperialism.
For you this is purely a theoretical discussion. The reality of the matter is that russian language and culture are a tool of russian genocidal imperialism (just look at the state of say the Komi language, if you even know that such a language exists). To fight russian genocidal imperialism, you need to get rid of russian insignia and russian chauvinist, slave-mentality thinking. And yes, this also means recognizing that Ukrainian is the official language of Ukraine and that we have our our great artists and heroes.
I’d strongly suggest actually reading the article.
You could have said the same thing about Southern Confederates in the U.S. in the 1860s. They don’t get to have their own version anymore.
Are you actually comparing Odessa to the Confederates? That’s a real decision you’re making?
Edit: trying to understand this take… Are you perhaps confused and thinking Odessa is part of Russia?
I’m saying that when your country is invaded, worrying about respecting the people who’s culture is the same as the invader’s is a great way to get a bunch of fifth columnists. And I’m not sure why you’re not aware of that. Similarly, despite the many British people of German heritage, in 1939, their “unique British-German culture” was not relevant and was not respected and should not have been.
This was the rationale behind America’s Japanese internment camps, which in my opinion, weren’t great.
I mean there’s a happy medium between not allowing things like allowing them to openly celebrate Russian stuff and putting them in internment camps…
To be clear, you think Japanese Americans shouldn’t have been allowed to speak Japanese anymore?
How long should this have persisted?
I never even came close to suggesting any such thing.
That’s a chunk of what the article is about. That’s one of the main things…
What do you think the article is about?
That’s literally calling for genocide? You’re telling a peoples (who are the victims of an invasion) that they cannot have their own culture because it’s similar to an invaders?
No. It literally is not calling for genocide any more than it would be calling for genocide to say that the French should stop teaching kids German in school in Alasace-Lorraine before the Nazis invaded.
Dude France is guilty of serial ethnocide when it comes to languages. Dialectal variation was stamped out, too. No French school taught anything but French at that time, or really ever, and eradication of German was prioritised just as Breton was. Prior German rule was way more even-handed, with French being co-official in French-speaking regions, Nazi rule was as you’d expect, post-war the French continued their policy until 1990. They still haven’t ratified the ECRML.
But I am not talking about post-war. That’s a different issue. A treaty was signed. Hostilities were over. France wasn’t at risk from a fifth column anymore. If the war is over and Ukraine continues this policy, I will change my mind, but this is what is happening during a hot war while they are being invaded by Russians.
Is the Ukraine banning of the Russian Orthodox church a horrible genocidal act too, despite the fact that the Russian Orthodox Church literally blesses Russian nuclear weapons and has ceremonies where they throw holy water on the troops going out to kill Ukrainians?
The Moscow Patriarchate is a direct Kremlin asset. If you ask Constantinople they have no ecclesiastical jurisdiction over Ukraine in the first place, the Kyiv Patriarchate does.
Pushkin isn’t such an asset, the Kremlin can’t tell anyone how to read him and problematise his stance towards Ukrainian rebellion against the Tsar, just as it’s possible to read Kant, problematise his racism, and still get lots of value out of it (especially since racism is incompatible with Kantian ethics).
The Russian language also isn’t such an asset, the Kremlin can’t tell people how to use it, and for what it’s worth the Ukrainian army is to a large degree operating in Russian. Are you proposing that units switch to a language the soldiers aren’t proficient in? Plenty of Russian-speaking soldiers were born before independence they didn’t even learn Ukrainian in school, if born after, they might’ve flunked the subject.
Pushkin statutes? More complicated. For now I’d say put them into storage or build a box around them so that people don’t have to look at them and talk about it after the war, right now the required nuance is a distraction so kick it down the road. Maybe the solution is to move them into a library.
Also FWIW Ukraine did ratify the ECRML. Russian is among 17 recognised minority languages. Being a native Russian speaker and being Ukrainian has never been incompatible, heck Zelensky is one of them. The purported ethnic conflict is a Kremlin narrative. Are we supposed to cancel “Servant of the people” (the series) because it’s mostly Russian. Playlist with ENGSUB btw I highly recommend it.
Yes, without a doubt denying children their cultural language and customs is a form of ethnocide/genocide.
Not teaching it in school isn’t the same as denying it. No country teaches every language spoken at home in schools.
I suppose if the U.S. invaded Mexico and Mexico banned the U.S. cultural enclaves that had arisen there from celebrating July 4th, that would also be genocide?
Seems like genocide is not all that horrific in your view.
Article II of the genocide convention has 5 definitions, any one of the five is enough for it to be called a genocide:
https://iccforum.com/genocide-convention
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Attempting to eliminate a culture by restricting it’s beliefs, teachings, or language would fall under ©. This is precisely what was done in the US and Canada with “Indian Schools” for example, and partially is what is being done to the Uyghurs in China, although they are also being subjected to (a), (b), (d) and (e) as well.
Not teaching the local language in schools, to instead force them to use your own is denying it and it is genocide.
Go to China and look at how they are wiping our local ethnicity through exactly that, they are forcing generations to grow up learning Mandarin in schools, legislating that TV must be in Mandarin, etc. and through this they are causing languages like Cantonese to lose their daily usage and thus die off.
It’s what a large swathe of Europe did during the 19th and 20th century, where local languages (and their corresponding cultures) were basically killed, e.g. everyone in France basically speaks Parisian France, with only Brittany holding out its culture.
This is revolting to hear anyone say.
WTF is wrong with you