• DragonAce@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    39
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    edit-2
    1 year ago

    These companies will not change unless they are forced to do so and our government isn’t going to do shit since most of congress is in the pocket of big oil. So what are our other options?

    Everyone likes to blame individuals for not using renewables or buying an electric car, when it reality their options were limited in the first place by big oil. Most people can barely afford to put food on the table and green or renewable products are usually significantly more expensive and not really an option. Besides that, IIRC ordinary citizens only account for roughly 20% of all greenhouse gas emissions. So the onus lies on big oil to make changes and offer affordable renewable options instead of the same gas guzzling/polluting bullshit we’ve been offered up to this point. But like I said, they won’t do something like that unless they are forced to do so, they will always pursue profit over people, unless those people get in their faces and force them to pursue other options.

    • explodicle@local106.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      most of congress is in the pocket of big oil. So what are our other options?

      Vote only for candidates against FPTP. When that’s gone, we can just vote for candidates who are against big oil.

        • explodicle@local106.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          Their unwillingness to act on climate change is a major (if not the biggest) reason we need representation. The Democrats hand power back to Republicans who undo this session’s climate action.

          Destroying the world more slowly by slightly impacting one election at a time brought us here.

          • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            1 year ago

            I understand and support the sentiment: something needs to change. I just don’t think that re-framing electoral politics will work unless it’s backed by a mass movement of organised workers. If that happens, the question becomes, why bother with the middlemen? They can legislate for themselves without having to beg the ruling class for mild compromises.

            Destroying the world more slowly by slightly impacting one election at a time brought us here.

            That’s kinda what I was driving it. How many elections would it take to abolish FPTP? We’d have to wait for that and only then could we think about voting in politicians who might do something and the system would still be dominated by capital. That makes a three-step process out of a two-step process.

            Seems like a request to wait for an indefinite number of election cycles—the same request of those who say to vote for this or that faction of the capitalist party and one day, just maybe, conditions will be just right for one of those parties to effect any change. Too many African, Latin American, and Asian homes and lives would be destroyed while they wait patiently for the US to get its act together.

            It would take too long to work unless you know of a massive campaign across the western world to implement FPTP. If it doesn’t exist already, it must be built within the next year or so or the west will be locked into another four-ish years of no progress. And that’s just for a shot at electing politicians who might vote to abolish FPTP. Before they even come within hearing distance of, never mind face-to-face with, the contradictions of imperialism.

            Currently, almost all I see in the west is how to do business as usual but in green. That means denying progress to the subjugated masses so that USians can maintain their standard of living. Oppressed people shouldn’t have to wait for the US to figure out how to tactically solve the world’s ills through an electoral technicality. Round and round we’d go with electoralism.

            At this point, there is one, single option: revolution. Anything else will take too long. Luckily for humanity, whatever the US thinks or wants is largely irrelevant. The world is revolving anyway. The only question for the world is what form the revolution takes. And the additional question for USians is whether they want to be part of the change or to ruin everything out of spite and self-interest.

            The Red Deal may be of interest (click drop-down menu under ‘articles’): https://therednation.org/environmental-justice/

            • explodicle@local106.com
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              While I agree with revolution, I don’t think pursuing that is at odds with voting a certain way once a year. There’s already a movement to eliminate FPTP in the USA and it has been making real progress. This additional step is necessary (within the framework of voting) for the other two steps to work - the second step keeps getting undone.

              Personally I’ve been pushing for this since the 2000 presidential election. It has indeed been painfully slow… But it does seem to be getting somewhere. Not to imply we shouldn’t be organizing outside of elections, too.

            • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              At this point, there is one, single option: revolution

              You’re the world’s biggest sucker if you think that’s even a possibility.

              Or more likely, a russian/right wing shill

              “Voting is useless” is right wing propaganda.

              • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                I have to admit, I did not expect this response. I’m struggling to see how an anti-capitalist argument in favour of socialist revolution is right wing.

                A possibility? It’s happening as we speak. Time will tell.

                • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  It’s a spoiler, a red herring. “Don’t bother doing the thing that could actually threaten our power. Instead, focus on this other thing that has no shot of happening.”

                  • redtea@lemmygrad.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    And in your view, the thing that threatens their power is voting Dem? Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood. If not: (i) how does this ‘solution’ help people who aren’t in the US and (ii) the Dems are in power and have been in power recently before this, and recently before that, and they achieved… what? They brought as much horror to the world as the GOP.

          • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            1 year ago

            The Democrats hand power back to Republicans

            Only because idiots like you don’t vote.

            Democratic strongholds are making massive gains on climate change. Look at California. That’s what happens when we get a democratic supermajority.

            The federal government has had a Democratic supermajority exactly once in the past few decades. For a few months. And they used it to get us the Affordable Care Act.

            Biden got the IRA done without a supermajority, but he’s a brilliant politician.

            You fuckers keep claiming democrats are ineffective or colluding or something but you haven’t actually given dems a chance to fix anything yet.

            Give us a democratic supermajority for 8 years and you’ll be amazed at what gets accomplished.

            • explodicle@local106.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              1 year ago

              Every assumption you just made was incorrect. But if you’re going to start with name calling, then this isn’t going to be a productive discussion.

              • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                If someone has decided voting isn’t worth it to the point that they’re trying to convince others not to vote, they’re generally too stupid and emotionally invested to change their mind. Or they’re a shill.

                This discussion (and name calling) isn’t for you. It’s for the audience. People feeling hopeless and powerless who might buy into the “don’t vote” bullshit. Voting matters.

                • explodicle@local106.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  You just called me an idiot who doesn’t vote after I suggested for whom you should vote. What will your vast audience think of that?

                  • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Voting 3rd party is effectively the same thing as not voting. I mentally tend to consider those as the same thing. But yes I should have clarified that.

      • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        1 year ago

        We don’t have time for that. Just vote Democrat, and vote in the primary.

        Undoing FPTP will take a generation. I agree it should be done, but it’s not the priority.

          • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            1 year ago

            No, I’m saying we can get climate change fixed without undoing fptp. Just give democrats a permanent supermajority. Much like in California.

            • explodicle@local106.com
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              How would you respond to GP’s point that most Democrats are corrupt too? Nobody here is arguing that they’re as bad as Republicans. But just electing them with no regard to their policy positions will produce right wing Democrats who will ultimately hold the same positions as Republicans, and then they’ll split into two FPTP-supporting parties like the Democratic-Republican party did. We will have won a name and nothing more.

              • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                Nobody here is arguing that they’re as bad as Republicans.

                You may not be, but plenty of people do make this argument, at which point I start calling them irredeemably stupid.

                But just electing them with no regard to their policy positions

                Every Democrat is better than every Republican, period. Given the choice between the two, it’s an obvious choice.

                The time to care about policy positions is in the primaries, in local elections in safe Democrat districts, and in internal democratic party elections (which you may not even know happen, but I attend all of them and it’s an excellent way to meet face to face with the people who in 10 years will be running your state).

                And then, yes, when you get a place that’s safely Democratic, you have the democrats split into a more left and a more right wing. But the new right wing of the democrats is the old left wing.

                • explodicle@local106.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  Why are you arguing with (and name calling) people who aren’t even here?

                  That’s not a given.

                  Internal elections that most working class people can’t attend is one of our problems; they’re taking advantage of voter fatigue.

                  What you’re describing already happened. Every Democratic-Republican was better than every Whig. And then the Democrats were bribed further and further right. If we don’t demand that they make themselves easy to replace, then it will happen again.

                  • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    2
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Every Democrat is better than every Republican, period. Given the choice between the two, it’s an obvious choice.

                    How is this not a given? With the modern GOP, how could you ever trust anyone who allies themselves with that party? Even if they’re personally a saint, they’re still allied to the GOP.

                    Internal elections that most working class people can’t attend is one of our problems; they’re taking advantage of voter fatigue.

                    Guess which states have implemented vote-by-mail? Democratic strongholds.

              • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                1 year ago

                How would you respond to GP’s point that most Democrats are corrupt too?

                Sorry, skipped this. I would say a) it’s an order of magnitude less than Republicans, and b) democratic voters are more willing to hold their candidates to task.

                Still a no brainer.

                • explodicle@local106.com
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  What does “holding them to task” look like if we’ll ultimately vote for anyone with a (D) next to their name? Like, yell at them or something?

                  • Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    1
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Primary them. Oust them from the party.

                    See: Andrew Cuomo, Katie Hill, Al Franken…

                    That never happens on the Republican side.

    • reverendz@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      It’s time for radical action and violent resistance.

      We’re staring into the face of human extinction and people are still quibbling about consumer choice.

      it’s going to take much, much more direct and violent action to force change.