More than 6,000 United Methodist congregations have now received permission to leave the denomination amid a schism over theology and the role of LGBTQ people.
Can we please move beyond this 2010 New Atheism view that every religious leader/person is stupid and unable to critically think?
Why? They clearly choose not to apply that ability to a big part of their lives. In this specific case under discussion, their entire career requires not applying any critical thinking. Their paycheck depends on their ability to convince other people of things that are not and can never be supported by any actual evidence.
It’s the reason that crowd is so susceptible, as a trend, to con men, malicious misinformation, and developing entire belief systems off a Facebook meme that pairs one politician’s face with a fake quote or a quote from a totally different politician. They’re trained, often from birth, that evidence is not necessary in the process of deciding what you want to believe; in fact, that evidence is often the bad guy (in that it opposes “faith”).
So, no. We’ll drop the characterization if and only if it stops being relevant to our day-to-day lives in America. It’s not the atheists who are saying they think I should get the death penalty (DeSantis’s preacher), that I should be shot in the back of the head (Texas Baptist Church), that God should kill me slowly (Pure Words Baptist Church), and that I should be hunted with dogs (governor of SC).
Okay so you’re going to sit here with a straight face and tell me that you honestly believe EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS PERSON EVER has no critical thinking skills?The LGBTQIA+ pastors that started a socialist christian church in Kentucky? MLK? Malcom X? Johann Bernoulli, Blaise Pascal, and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, all of whom are some of the most important mathematicians in history and were religious, all couldn’t think for themselves? Immanuel Kant, famous influential philosopher, no critical thinking. Every Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindi, Buddhist, Shintoists, and every other religion in existence throughout history, not a single person alive today who believes in religion can think for themselves? Between 70-85% of the global population (depending on what source you look at) report themselves as follower of a religion. No critical thinking abilities across 75% of the global population?
you honestly believe EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS PERSON EVER has no critical thinking skills?
I honestly believe the ones that matter certainly don’t. The ones who are paying the church’s bills and showing up to their pep rallies every week are very clearly not spending any time thinking about it.
The LGBTQIA+ pastors that started a socialist christian church in Kentucky?
Who? Let me know when they start affecting actual government policy, or even just going on TV and saying “We condemn those other Christians who say gay people should be shot in the back of the head.” That’s what we’ve been demanding from Muslims since 2001, why are you special?
MLK? Malcom X? Johann Bernoulli, Blaise Pascal, and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz,
Blah blah blah, fallacious appeal to authority, blah blah blah. Name-dropping is not “critical thinking”, and you really shouldn’t have included a literal, straight-up alchemist in that list if you were trying to use it to make a point.
all of whom are some of the most important mathematicians in history and were religious, all couldn’t think for themselves?
MLK and Malcom X were mathematicians? TIL.
Immanuel Kant, famous influential philosopher, no critical thinking.
So what I’m hearing you say here is: “If smart people believe in magic sky fairy, magic sky fairy must be logical to believe in,” which is about the level of discourse I’d expect from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking. Thanks for being an object lesson.
Please disengage, this is simply not productive. I understand you may have been tangibly hurt by religious folks who have persecuted you or your loved ones. I have suffered real harm from this as well. But making sweeping statements about broad categories of people is generally not a great take and being confrontational with a moderator asking for some civility in a thread and appealing to humanity is not a good look.
Can we please move beyond this 2010 New Atheism view
That’s really not something a mod should say and pretty much dismissing an opinion without even engaging it. I guess atheists are just ok to dismiss and deny an opinion?
That’s a bad faith interpretation of what the mod said and who they were replying to. They were pointing out that the idea that all religious people are devoid of critical thinking skills is an incorrect take, and they were asking for people to move beyond a specific kind of toxic atheistic leaning.
What you are accusing me of, dismissing and denying all atheists (channel switching upwards) is what the original comment thread was doing, dismissing and denying all religious individuals.
To be absolutely clear, I think that religious people who are bigoted and incapable of critical thinking are a problem to society and I have suffered directly at the hands of these individuals, but we should be focusing on that or asking questions to confirm this shared concern rather than attacking each other because we jump to the conclusion that any push back to our words must come from an ideological standpoint in opposition to ours.
They could argue their point and were not attacking anyone specific. The mod continued to be upset and eventually attacked the poster specifically, when the posted stayed hypothetical.
If you don’t know how dismissive of atheists that saying is, how it’s used to shut down their opinion, which they were sharing without attacking someonee specifically, likely because they became atheists after a lot of personal work, is exactly why atheists get shut out of a conversation.
Is their opinion not valid? Have they attacked anyone or taken any rights, or just expressed an opinion they offered to discuss and never attcked anyone?
Literally they pointed out the flaws in the mods argument and the mod got mad. Only one group was being aggressive, one group made a mildly flippant joke and was willing to discuss the nuance. One became sarcastic and rude.
I apologize for being a little annoyed right now. I feel like I’m being moderated for defending myself against their escalation.
The top level comment from the mod was not aggressive or accusatory.
My response to that top level comment was measured and nuanced, with specific examples of real events and an analysis of the mindset behind those events.
Their reply to me included all caps, excessive punctuation, extremely bad-faith arguments (the actual religious views of every single one of the names they dropped are incredibly complicated, not just “was Christian”; again, one member of that esteemed list literally believed he could turn lead into gold with magic), and that’s assuming calling the question of critical thinking outdated and childish (“2010 New Atheist”) is not an aggressive escalation.
Furthermore, you told me to disengage, and then the mod continued to engage. I’d appreciate it if they received a similar request, because right now it feels like you’re holding my arms behind my back while they get to keep punching me.
My response to that top level comment was measured and nuanced, with specific examples of real events and an analysis of the mindset behind those events.
That’s not how this came off to myself, or the people who reported various comments in this thread. I would encourage you to diffuse rather than escalate if you are ever met with something that feels like an escalation. It’s impossible to remove yourself entirely from a situation where you feel you are being attacked, which is why I push towards the concept of good faith. When it feels like someone is escalating- ask questions and try to diffuse rather than assume you have interpreted their words correctly.
If you need a more detailed view of how I interpreted the interaction, feel free to check my replies further down this thread to another individual.
Furthermore, you told me to disengage, and then the mod continued to engage. I’d appreciate it if they received a similar request
To be absolutely clear and transparent, they have and they have since deleted some of their replies. On a more practical level I am much more familiar with this mod and their judgement than I am with you, and I’m going to be generally siding with any moderator we have as they get vetted rather thoroughly… however, we are all human here and we make mistakes and we engage in human behavior. Please have patience with us and treat us with good faith. I’m sorry if anyone failed you here, but this kind of engagement- a good faith one, where you ask questions, and try to solve problems is what I personally love to see and it’s in my experience the best way to resolve conflict. Thank you for engaging in this manner 💜
. On a more practical level I am much more familiar with this mod and their judgement than I am with you, and I’m going to be generally siding with any moderator we have as they get vetted rather thoroughly
Well, I mean… ok, that’s fair. I can’t argue with that.
You know, it’s fine to dislike religious people and believe different things. But you’re acting pretty intolerant here. Insulting others beliefs and intelligence isn’t cool just cause you disagree with it.
“Level of discourse…from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking.” “Magical sky faerie” “fallacious appeal to authority”. You sound like a pseudo-intellectual who gets off on putting down others and you found a population that you feel you’re allowed to do this to.
Reported your comment as well. You don’t have to be nasty just cause you dislike someone’s perspective on life. And don’t hit me with “well they hate xyz people”. I know you know not all religious folks share the same view - or I’d at least hope so.
So what I’m hearing you say here is: “If smart people believe in magic sky fairy, magic sky fairy must be logical to believe in,” which is about the level of discourse I’d expect from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking. Thanks for being an object lesson.
This is such a bad reading of the comment that I can only imagine you’re acting in bad faith. You have made the assumption that reason will inevitably lead people to the same conclusions about the world, but that is not true, and that is what the OP is bringing up. How is it that many people, when presented with the same sets of facts, and using the same reasonable principles, can come to differing conclusions? This question should keep you up at night, but instead it seems you’re only interested in saying “those other people are dumb, I am smart.”
I’m sorry. The question that keeps me up at night is “How are people able to just decide to believe something with no (or less than no) practical evidence?”. Just because a lot of people have managed it, even people who are very evidence-based in every other part of their life, doesn’t mean I can just do it. I’d literally have to think less about the implications of such a thing on the everyday world. I’d have to stop asking questions (like: “Does God help anyone? If so, how does he choose? If not, why pray?”, and no, “we just can’t understand him” is not an answer I can just choose to believe because I like it).
So yeah, this is obviously a “me” problem, since everyone else on this instance seems to intuitively grasp the idea that one can actually come to a valid, reality-based conclusion that God exists and I’m the “2010 New Atheist” for not being able to get on board.
all of whom are some of the most important mathematicians in history and were religious, all couldn’t think for themselves?
MLK and Malcom X were mathematicians? TIL.
Tbh not being able to understand how sentence structure works and scope of descriptors is about the level of critical thinking I expected in a response.
You are right. You are very smart and good at critical thinking. No one in religion is 1/1000th as good at critical thinking as you. Religious Philosophy and Theology are not fields of study that use critical thinking at all. Thank you for blessing me with your incredible insight. We should all tremble before your very smart and well-thought ideas. I am sorry I tried to critically think about the world around me when I should have just listened to you.
I think 75% of the population literally try not to have critical thinking in one major aspect of their life that literally says don’t think, have faith.
It’s a part of religion to not think, to follow and obey. It’s sweet you want to defend them in other avenues, but cognitive dissonance is also causing a lot of sorrow and pain while religious people on majority are standing back and following their leaders, even the progressive ones, aren’t willing to progress fast enough. They’re still following something that’s usually mostly historically been oppressive and regressive to maintain power over the masses.
The issue is the framing of “organized religion” when what you really mean is “Christianity”. This has been the problem with new atheism for a long time: take valid criticisms of Christianity, along with the trauma and experiences in Christian churches, and then try to paint all religion with that same brush. And you can’t do that.
You’re angry at Christianity and its hegemony in American life. I get it and I share many of those fears and frustrations. You mentioned things happening in FL. I’m in FL, and as a queer person it’s fucking terrifying here. But the momentum behind that push isn’t coming from synagogues or mosques, or from Hindus or Buddhists or Taoists. It’s an explicit white Christian supremacist movement.
Christianity’s dogma, style of worship, mindsets, etc don’t map to other faiths. And even inside of Christianity there’s people who are trying to push back. But saying that things like this are characteristic of all religions shows a complete lack of understanding of faiths outside of Christianity.
Why? They clearly choose not to apply that ability to a big part of their lives. In this specific case under discussion, their entire career requires not applying any critical thinking. Their paycheck depends on their ability to convince other people of things that are not and can never be supported by any actual evidence.
It’s the reason that crowd is so susceptible, as a trend, to con men, malicious misinformation, and developing entire belief systems off a Facebook meme that pairs one politician’s face with a fake quote or a quote from a totally different politician. They’re trained, often from birth, that evidence is not necessary in the process of deciding what you want to believe; in fact, that evidence is often the bad guy (in that it opposes “faith”).
So, no. We’ll drop the characterization if and only if it stops being relevant to our day-to-day lives in America. It’s not the atheists who are saying they think I should get the death penalty (DeSantis’s preacher), that I should be shot in the back of the head (Texas Baptist Church), that God should kill me slowly (Pure Words Baptist Church), and that I should be hunted with dogs (governor of SC).
Okay so you’re going to sit here with a straight face and tell me that you honestly believe EVERY SINGLE RELIGIOUS PERSON EVER has no critical thinking skills?The LGBTQIA+ pastors that started a socialist christian church in Kentucky? MLK? Malcom X? Johann Bernoulli, Blaise Pascal, and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, all of whom are some of the most important mathematicians in history and were religious, all couldn’t think for themselves? Immanuel Kant, famous influential philosopher, no critical thinking. Every Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindi, Buddhist, Shintoists, and every other religion in existence throughout history, not a single person alive today who believes in religion can think for themselves? Between 70-85% of the global population (depending on what source you look at) report themselves as follower of a religion. No critical thinking abilities across 75% of the global population?
I honestly believe the ones that matter certainly don’t. The ones who are paying the church’s bills and showing up to their pep rallies every week are very clearly not spending any time thinking about it.
Who? Let me know when they start affecting actual government policy, or even just going on TV and saying “We condemn those other Christians who say gay people should be shot in the back of the head.” That’s what we’ve been demanding from Muslims since 2001, why are you special?
Blah blah blah, fallacious appeal to authority, blah blah blah. Name-dropping is not “critical thinking”, and you really shouldn’t have included a literal, straight-up alchemist in that list if you were trying to use it to make a point.
MLK and Malcom X were mathematicians? TIL.
So what I’m hearing you say here is: “If smart people believe in magic sky fairy, magic sky fairy must be logical to believe in,” which is about the level of discourse I’d expect from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking. Thanks for being an object lesson.
Please disengage, this is simply not productive. I understand you may have been tangibly hurt by religious folks who have persecuted you or your loved ones. I have suffered real harm from this as well. But making sweeping statements about broad categories of people is generally not a great take and being confrontational with a moderator asking for some civility in a thread and appealing to humanity is not a good look.
They’re responding to the mods energy.
The top level comment from the mod was not aggressive or accusatory. They escalated.
Ultimately it doesn’t matter who’s in the wrong, it’s time for everyone to disengage. This is not productive.
You don’t see an issue with a MOD starting with
That’s really not something a mod should say and pretty much dismissing an opinion without even engaging it. I guess atheists are just ok to dismiss and deny an opinion?
That’s a bad faith interpretation of what the mod said and who they were replying to. They were pointing out that the idea that all religious people are devoid of critical thinking skills is an incorrect take, and they were asking for people to move beyond a specific kind of toxic atheistic leaning.
What you are accusing me of, dismissing and denying all atheists (channel switching upwards) is what the original comment thread was doing, dismissing and denying all religious individuals.
To be absolutely clear, I think that religious people who are bigoted and incapable of critical thinking are a problem to society and I have suffered directly at the hands of these individuals, but we should be focusing on that or asking questions to confirm this shared concern rather than attacking each other because we jump to the conclusion that any push back to our words must come from an ideological standpoint in opposition to ours.
They could argue their point and were not attacking anyone specific. The mod continued to be upset and eventually attacked the poster specifically, when the posted stayed hypothetical.
If you don’t know how dismissive of atheists that saying is, how it’s used to shut down their opinion, which they were sharing without attacking someonee specifically, likely because they became atheists after a lot of personal work, is exactly why atheists get shut out of a conversation.
Is their opinion not valid? Have they attacked anyone or taken any rights, or just expressed an opinion they offered to discuss and never attcked anyone?
Literally they pointed out the flaws in the mods argument and the mod got mad. Only one group was being aggressive, one group made a mildly flippant joke and was willing to discuss the nuance. One became sarcastic and rude.
I apologize for being a little annoyed right now. I feel like I’m being moderated for defending myself against their escalation.
My response to that top level comment was measured and nuanced, with specific examples of real events and an analysis of the mindset behind those events.
Their reply to me included all caps, excessive punctuation, extremely bad-faith arguments (the actual religious views of every single one of the names they dropped are incredibly complicated, not just “was Christian”; again, one member of that esteemed list literally believed he could turn lead into gold with magic), and that’s assuming calling the question of critical thinking outdated and childish (“2010 New Atheist”) is not an aggressive escalation.
Furthermore, you told me to disengage, and then the mod continued to engage. I’d appreciate it if they received a similar request, because right now it feels like you’re holding my arms behind my back while they get to keep punching me.
That’s not how this came off to myself, or the people who reported various comments in this thread. I would encourage you to diffuse rather than escalate if you are ever met with something that feels like an escalation. It’s impossible to remove yourself entirely from a situation where you feel you are being attacked, which is why I push towards the concept of good faith. When it feels like someone is escalating- ask questions and try to diffuse rather than assume you have interpreted their words correctly.
If you need a more detailed view of how I interpreted the interaction, feel free to check my replies further down this thread to another individual.
To be absolutely clear and transparent, they have and they have since deleted some of their replies. On a more practical level I am much more familiar with this mod and their judgement than I am with you, and I’m going to be generally siding with any moderator we have as they get vetted rather thoroughly… however, we are all human here and we make mistakes and we engage in human behavior. Please have patience with us and treat us with good faith. I’m sorry if anyone failed you here, but this kind of engagement- a good faith one, where you ask questions, and try to solve problems is what I personally love to see and it’s in my experience the best way to resolve conflict. Thank you for engaging in this manner 💜
Well, I mean… ok, that’s fair. I can’t argue with that.
You know, it’s fine to dislike religious people and believe different things. But you’re acting pretty intolerant here. Insulting others beliefs and intelligence isn’t cool just cause you disagree with it.
“Level of discourse…from someone unfamiliar with the concept of critical thinking.” “Magical sky faerie” “fallacious appeal to authority”. You sound like a pseudo-intellectual who gets off on putting down others and you found a population that you feel you’re allowed to do this to.
Reported your comment as well. You don’t have to be nasty just cause you dislike someone’s perspective on life. And don’t hit me with “well they hate xyz people”. I know you know not all religious folks share the same view - or I’d at least hope so.
This is such a bad reading of the comment that I can only imagine you’re acting in bad faith. You have made the assumption that reason will inevitably lead people to the same conclusions about the world, but that is not true, and that is what the OP is bringing up. How is it that many people, when presented with the same sets of facts, and using the same reasonable principles, can come to differing conclusions? This question should keep you up at night, but instead it seems you’re only interested in saying “those other people are dumb, I am smart.”
I’m sorry. The question that keeps me up at night is “How are people able to just decide to believe something with no (or less than no) practical evidence?”. Just because a lot of people have managed it, even people who are very evidence-based in every other part of their life, doesn’t mean I can just do it. I’d literally have to think less about the implications of such a thing on the everyday world. I’d have to stop asking questions (like: “Does God help anyone? If so, how does he choose? If not, why pray?”, and no, “we just can’t understand him” is not an answer I can just choose to believe because I like it).
So yeah, this is obviously a “me” problem, since everyone else on this instance seems to intuitively grasp the idea that one can actually come to a valid, reality-based conclusion that God exists and I’m the “2010 New Atheist” for not being able to get on board.
Tbh not being able to understand how sentence structure works and scope of descriptors is about the level of critical thinking I expected in a response.
You are right. You are very smart and good at critical thinking. No one in religion is 1/1000th as good at critical thinking as you. Religious Philosophy and Theology are not fields of study that use critical thinking at all. Thank you for blessing me with your incredible insight. We should all tremble before your very smart and well-thought ideas. I am sorry I tried to critically think about the world around me when I should have just listened to you.
You’re a mod and being this way publicly? Personally attacking?
I think 75% of the population literally try not to have critical thinking in one major aspect of their life that literally says don’t think, have faith.
It’s a part of religion to not think, to follow and obey. It’s sweet you want to defend them in other avenues, but cognitive dissonance is also causing a lot of sorrow and pain while religious people on majority are standing back and following their leaders, even the progressive ones, aren’t willing to progress fast enough. They’re still following something that’s usually mostly historically been oppressive and regressive to maintain power over the masses.
The issue is the framing of “organized religion” when what you really mean is “Christianity”. This has been the problem with new atheism for a long time: take valid criticisms of Christianity, along with the trauma and experiences in Christian churches, and then try to paint all religion with that same brush. And you can’t do that.
You’re angry at Christianity and its hegemony in American life. I get it and I share many of those fears and frustrations. You mentioned things happening in FL. I’m in FL, and as a queer person it’s fucking terrifying here. But the momentum behind that push isn’t coming from synagogues or mosques, or from Hindus or Buddhists or Taoists. It’s an explicit white Christian supremacist movement.
Christianity’s dogma, style of worship, mindsets, etc don’t map to other faiths. And even inside of Christianity there’s people who are trying to push back. But saying that things like this are characteristic of all religions shows a complete lack of understanding of faiths outside of Christianity.