“The study was done by Christian Wagner and colleagues at Saarland University in Germany, along with researchers in the Netherlands, Iran and France. The team was inspired by an ancient Egyptian wall painting showing a huge statue being hauled across the sand on a sledge in about 1800 BC. The painting has a detail that has long puzzled Egyptologists: a worker who appears to be pouring water onto the sand in front of the sledge while others appear to be carrying water to replenish his supply.”
I notice you don’t post the names of any of the scientists who believe only a small workforce built the pyramids. Why is that? That’s really the one I was curious about.
Because, again, it’s kind of hard to argue against what they literally carved into a rock.
Because, again, it’s kind of hard to argue against what they literally carved into a rock.
Not arguing with you here, cuz I have no dog in this fight, but you’re seemingly ignoring the possibility of the emperor bragging about crowd size the number of slaves workers utilized?
I mean, he could lie about it, but is there really any doubt a pharaoh could conscript a few hundred guys?
It’s just an easy, obvious solution, and probably the one they used because they weren’t dumb. We also have a lot of surviving paperwork from the organisation of pyramid building, including things like worker’s comp.
So you’re saying that they used some unknown means of pulling big stones over rocks, but rather bragged about one they didn’t use even though it would have worked?
I’m not saying they didn’t have a lot of slaves, just thinking that they might be exaggerating slave count (as a metric of how powerful they were) while using something like this river (something innocuous that they wouldn’t need to brag about) to augment the bodies in use.
You are making the mistake that slaves built Egyptian religious monuments. They did not. Egyptians did it, not their slaves. They did it out of religious obligation.
Which makes sense. You don’t want slaves building your sacred places when slaves can sabotage things.
Again, there are hundreds of articles about the adjacent work camps. Please look at the publications of Zahi Hawass, chief archeologist of Egypt, and Amihai Mazar, a professor of archeology in Jerusalem.
Most claim that there could have been up to ten thousand workers. Some claim that the number of workers was as low as 1600.
I’m not sure why you think 1600 workers mean they couldn’t just drag large stones over land on sledges using a significant number of those 1600 workers. I’m not even sure why you think ten thousand workers would have been necessary. Can you explain please?
I mean, it’s probably both. They would have used a bunch of guys, and maybe oxen, because that was their source of mechanical energy for nearly everything. To make is easier, they would add the cleverest engineering you can do with no formal science and bronze age materials.
They also depict gods with the heads of jackals and birds, beings from other planets, their conception of the afterlife, pornography, and obviously exaggerated claims about the power and influence of the Pharoahs.
I’m saying that we should be skeptical. dubitante omnibus, as Descartes would say…
But why would the carving be a lie? What would the benefit be about lying about a lot of people dragging huge pieces of stone on a sledge when a lot of people dragging huge pieces of stone on a sledge would work?
You’re caught up in the argument and not paying attention to what the other person is saying.
Think of it this way, that carving might be totally accurate snd still not represent the whole story. It doesn’t even really show that many people, I’ve worked jobs where for a few days there are hundreds of people it’s very impressive and the photos always end up somewhere. This could just be intended to capture one key stage or big event, if it could be combining lots of things into one image to show ‘there was a huge workforce’ it’s not a lie or deception but it’s also not the whole story.
Brute force was part of how they did it but it certainly wasn’t all of it, and most people who’ve never pulled a big rope don’t really think about how hard it is - plus we take it for granted now but having rope that a hundred men can pull on is a feat of engineering in itself.
We know they used boats to transport them most the way, we know they used complex pullies and levers to get them into position, we know they used work teams and various other methods but none of those really solve all the questions which is why it’s such an interesting subject to think about.
And yes I know people get silly and talk about aliens or magic acoustic whistles or whatever but that’s not what the person you were talking to was doing, things like wet sand and forgotten infrastructure are realistic and logical ideas.
“The study was done by Christian Wagner and colleagues at Saarland University in Germany, along with researchers in the Netherlands, Iran and France. The team was inspired by an ancient Egyptian wall painting showing a huge statue being hauled across the sand on a sledge in about 1800 BC. The painting has a detail that has long puzzled Egyptologists: a worker who appears to be pouring water onto the sand in front of the sledge while others appear to be carrying water to replenish his supply.”
https://physicsworld.com/a/did-slippery-sand-help-egyptians-build-the-pyramids/
There are hundreds of articles about this theory. It was all the rage a few years ago.
I notice you don’t post the names of any of the scientists who believe only a small workforce built the pyramids. Why is that? That’s really the one I was curious about.
Because, again, it’s kind of hard to argue against what they literally carved into a rock.
Not arguing with you here, cuz I have no dog in this fight, but you’re seemingly ignoring the possibility of the emperor bragging about
crowd sizethe number of slaves workers utilized?I mean, he could lie about it, but is there really any doubt a pharaoh could conscript a few hundred guys?
It’s just an easy, obvious solution, and probably the one they used because they weren’t dumb. We also have a lot of surviving paperwork from the organisation of pyramid building, including things like worker’s comp.
So you’re saying that they used some unknown means of pulling big stones over rocks, but rather bragged about one they didn’t use even though it would have worked?
I’m not saying they didn’t have a lot of slaves, just thinking that they might be exaggerating slave count (as a metric of how powerful they were) while using something like this river (something innocuous that they wouldn’t need to brag about) to augment the bodies in use.
You are making the mistake that slaves built Egyptian religious monuments. They did not. Egyptians did it, not their slaves. They did it out of religious obligation.
Which makes sense. You don’t want slaves building your sacred places when slaves can sabotage things.
Again, there are hundreds of articles about the adjacent work camps. Please look at the publications of Zahi Hawass, chief archeologist of Egypt, and Amihai Mazar, a professor of archeology in Jerusalem.
Most claim that there could have been up to ten thousand workers. Some claim that the number of workers was as low as 1600.
I’m not sure why you think 1600 workers mean they couldn’t just drag large stones over land on sledges using a significant number of those 1600 workers. I’m not even sure why you think ten thousand workers would have been necessary. Can you explain please?
I never suggested that they couldn’t.
Personally, I don’t think that the “brute force” argument is the best. I think it’s arguing from ignorance.
I mean, it’s probably both. They would have used a bunch of guys, and maybe oxen, because that was their source of mechanical energy for nearly everything. To make is easier, they would add the cleverest engineering you can do with no formal science and bronze age materials.
How is it arguing from ignorance when, yet again, they showed us that they did just that.
Are you saying the carving is a lie? Why would it be?
They also depict gods with the heads of jackals and birds, beings from other planets, their conception of the afterlife, pornography, and obviously exaggerated claims about the power and influence of the Pharoahs.
I’m saying that we should be skeptical. dubitante omnibus, as Descartes would say…
Not that one, no.
But why would the carving be a lie? What would the benefit be about lying about a lot of people dragging huge pieces of stone on a sledge when a lot of people dragging huge pieces of stone on a sledge would work?
I don’t know, my friend. I’m not an archeologist or Egyptologist. I’m just an enthusiast who has read a dozen conflicting theories.
You’re caught up in the argument and not paying attention to what the other person is saying.
Think of it this way, that carving might be totally accurate snd still not represent the whole story. It doesn’t even really show that many people, I’ve worked jobs where for a few days there are hundreds of people it’s very impressive and the photos always end up somewhere. This could just be intended to capture one key stage or big event, if it could be combining lots of things into one image to show ‘there was a huge workforce’ it’s not a lie or deception but it’s also not the whole story.
Brute force was part of how they did it but it certainly wasn’t all of it, and most people who’ve never pulled a big rope don’t really think about how hard it is - plus we take it for granted now but having rope that a hundred men can pull on is a feat of engineering in itself.
We know they used boats to transport them most the way, we know they used complex pullies and levers to get them into position, we know they used work teams and various other methods but none of those really solve all the questions which is why it’s such an interesting subject to think about.
And yes I know people get silly and talk about aliens or magic acoustic whistles or whatever but that’s not what the person you were talking to was doing, things like wet sand and forgotten infrastructure are realistic and logical ideas.