Good, stop using Discord to host your shit
Especially Open Source stuff.
I genuinely don’t understand why some open source communities rely so heavily on Discord.
Because you need people to build a community, and like it or not, most people are on discord
There are other reasons but I think this is the main one
Yes but it’s a small effort to sign up for somewhere else. Matrix is just as good and they do care about your privacy.
I find it really weird for a project like Home Assistant where the whole goal of the package is to wrestle control of your home from the big tech clouds. Only to put their own comms data in a big tech cloud… :X
Matrix is not as good. It’s getting there with spaces and matrix 2.0 on the horizon but it’s still a bit clunky.
most people are on discord
There’s a lot of people on Discord (around 200 million monthly active users) but it’s still the smallest out of all the major messaging services that support group chats. For example, Telegram has over double the number of users, and WhatsApp has 10x the users.
For open source projects in particular, something that integrates with Github and Gitlab login (like Gitter which is now powered by Matrix) is a better choice, as developers are practically guaranteed to have one of those accounts.
The article says the code was not hosted on discord. Even if it was, the code does not infringe on any Nintendo copyright. Having a grudge against discord doesn’t make it fair to victim blame
Discord hosted the community, not the code. And that community is now destroyed without even a chance to backup. And Discord can absolutely be blamed because people were warning that this would happen. This is as much a result of Discord’s centralized design as it is of Nintendo’s greed. Now the community has to be reestablished on a new platform from scratch.
They are saying comment OP is blaming the user for using Discord, not Discord.
I only said it wasn’t ok to victim blame, I’m not at all saying discord is the victim.
OK, I misunderstood it. However, this was something that people were warning about for a long time.
Walled garden platforms doing what walled garden platforms do I suppose…
This has nothing to do with being a walled platform. All these maintainers of all these lemmy servers would have to do the exact same thing if Nintendo came to them. And if they refused then Nintendo could go to the server host. And if that didn’t work you would end up in court. It has nothing to do with walled gardens and everything to do with Nintendo abusing dmca.
All these maintainers of all these lemmy servers would have to do the exact same thing if Nintendo came to them.
yes but then the community would move to another lemmy host and it would turn into a game of whack a mole for Nintendo. There is no other Discord host.
I mean, Suyu is already jumping to new locations on the internet, so whack a mole/hydra is still in effect
And also the maintainers being too trusting. They openly discussed pirate ROMs in the server and such.
It does have to do with being a walled platform though. You as the Discord server owner have zero control over whether or not you are taken down. If this was Lemmy or a Discourse server (to go with something a little closer to walled garden) that they ran, the hosting provider or a court would have to take them down. Even then the hosting provider wouldn’t be a huge deal since you could just restore backup to a new one Pirate Bay style. Hell, depending on whether or not the devs are anonymous (probably not if they used Discord), they could just move the server to a new jurisdiction that doesn’t care. The IW4 mod for MW2 2009 was forked and the moved to Tor when Activision came running for them so this isn’t even unprecedented.
I think their point was, all things being equal, a server on discord vs a community on a Lemmy instance doesn’t make a difference. In both cases, the people who ultimately own the platform have to decide whether to just delete them or go toe-to-toe with Nintendo in court.
Hosting everything themselves is a different story. Though…is it possible for a federated instance to exist inside the tor network? Maybe that’s already a huge thing and it never occurred to me.
Yes, or just register it anonymously from a country that doesn’t care
Walled garden, more like walled room of 1m x 1m.
Discord sucks so much. I wish it wasn’t so popular.
The company sucks and it being closed source with shitty security and privacy policy sucks but the software is still the best messaging, gaming, video/streaming experience if we’re being honest. Nothing has all the features and convenience when it comes to watching shows and gaming with friends. Theres also never been such an easy way for anyone to run their own irc/etc server with as many features and convenience/price as discord.
They are fulfilling a lot of needs and people won’t leave until something 10x better comes out and nothing is even at 1:1 quality in terms of video, voice, streaming, gaming. Some have messaging and history yes but not even bots and different channels/forums setup. Maybe MAYBE telegram if you’re a super user but and thats only for bots and chats no gaming, watching shows, etc
What’s wrong with the privacy policy? Can’t they literally not see your messages unless you get reported?
the messages aren’t end-to-end encrypted, so there’s nothing stopping them from viewing them at their leisure.
They’ve talked about the system, they can’t read your messages unless someone reports them.
spoiler
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I’ve been tempted for the last year to begin work on designing an experience like IRC, but which includes voice chat and screen sharing capabilities. That’s my dream is a melding of a nostalgic chat protocol, with modern services.
So Matrix protocol?
From my understanding IRC’s biggest flaw is that it requires the recipient to be online in order to receive messages, and any software that includes voice, video, screen sharing, and proper servers would by necessity have very little resemblance to it.
I suppose I mean the resemblance to IRC would be mostly in the user experience. However, I personally don’t want to add persisted server-side messaging either. The novelty for me is that it’s a “here, now” social experience.
The problem with non-persistent messaging is that for most things people use Discord for it is a non-starter. Most people who are doing more than just socializing really don’t want to spend half their time repeating things to people who were at work, asleep, or in a different time zone when the discussion came it. Any serious Discord competitor would need to focus on practically and low barriers to entery, which tend to be directly opposed to novelty.
@sonori the problem is that Discord tried to mix social media with Instant Messaging. This is not something that’s working well. On one of them, you just talk to people, ask them about stuff and whatnot (this is why it is also called *direct* messaging). On other, you want to have stuff that is rather more easily accessible and has various other social functions - and it is also designed around it.
You also have a place where you can centralize all discussion (i.e. the feed) so you can at least get an idea of what is going on.
Discord (as a messaging app, primarily) is totally unfit for these tasks.
I don’t think my solution would satisfy users who are completely married to the Discord experience. The persisted social media experience isn’t what I’m interested in, personally. I want an old school chat experience, that still works for modern day LAN parties and movie nights.
Or “How Signal is closer in functionality to WhatsApp by the day, because it turns out people like the functionality of WhatsApp.”
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Same. They’re are so many foss options out there, why discord?
Guess what? This will make them stronger. Suyu’s GitLab repo was already DMCA’d, after that they set up their own Forgejo instance. They also get their website running again (It was down for a few days, I don’t know the reason) and they’re now strong and independent. Moving away from Discord will only increase their independence.
I wonder if the codeberg site is vulnerable to such laws. I think they operate from the EU.
Germany specifically
They’re based in Germany, so it should be fine. But I think they said at some point that they don’t want any trouble with DMCA code.
Suyu died though. Right now the only actively maintained Yuzu fork is Sudachi, which is only maintained by a single person.
Apparently there was some drama about the Yuzu devs using code which came from a switch SDK as a basis for emulator code, which kind of poisons the whole codebase.
Suyu died though.
What makes you think so?
Apparently there was some drama about the Yuzu devs using code which came from a switch SDK as a basis for emulator code, which kind of poisons the whole codebase.
But if this was in Yuzu, it’s also present in every other fork, right? Also, was this a leaked Nintendo SDK or something 3rd-party?
What makes you think so?
The devs said so. Check r/Suyu, that seems to be where a majority of the updates are being posted. I think there was a link to a pastebin post somewhere there as well.
The SDK mentioned was first party, presumably leaked but I’m not completely sure. And yes, that means it would be present in every other fork as well.
Edit: here are some of the links I’m talking about:
https://www.reddit.com/r/suyu/s/TqSWDlnsGs
Edit 2: worth noting that the “founder” (as they call themself) still wants to continue on the project but I believe a majority of the devs left.
Edit 3: I found the archive link from someone on the Yuzu team showing they had access to a leaked switch SDK: https://web.archive.org/web/20210114104638/https://twitter.com/Slashiee_/status/1349557173970341890
I don’t know how much of this evidence is real but if any of it is they’re going to have a much harder time finding devs willing to contribute to Suyu, even if development does continue.
Well, that’s one more small group of people learning not to trust Discord. I hope someone is on hand to show them how to set up a matrix server in a jurisdiction not affected by the DMCA.
Maybe they should have picked any of the available chat options that aren’t totally proprietary?
Stop basing your organization on Discord and hosting all your development work there. Don’t subject yourself to the whims of venture capital and enshittification.
Diversify your online presence, and find a local company that will host a matrix server for you.
A forum is perhaps the best support format for a project. Something like discourse. It can be easily migrated in an emergency and it can be searched from a search engine. You also don’t need an account to browse it.
What I find hilarious is that these are just minor hiccups. The emulation scene has existed for a long time and will continue to exist for a long time. None of these recent measures will do anything to stop it as long as the emulator devs aren’t trying to make money off Nintendo IP.
Ooh! I would like to hear from all those who were fervently vouching for Discord as a support channel for FOSS projects.
Perhaps the same might happen to a web forum or matrix channel. But at least you get an opportunity to backup and migrate.
I mean, my response earlier probably still works for those who’d prefer discord as a support channel to other Foss channels: This is far more of a Nintendo bad moment than it is a Discord bad. I doubt foss alternatives would have the lawyers to fight Nintendo better than Discord can. And while my mind immediately thought of a hydra anology that Foss might have, hasnt the hydra already activated anyways? Suyu is already jumping into different hosting mediums
We need to go back to pre-discord and bring back forums man. Don’t get me wrong, discord has its uses, all my friends use it, but discord killing forums and websites was really bad for the internet as a whole. Like look at dolphin, made before discord, it has its own website, its own forums. Hopefully if Nintendo does ever come after dolphin they’ll at least be able to keep the website and forums up.
or, you know, lemmy? it’s not that much different from forum software, is browsable and federated
I mean Nintendo would nuke the forums too.
Their lawyers don’t fuck around. They’re as bad as Disney.
Unless you’re a forum hosted in someplace like the Netherlands or Russia you’re in range for Nintendo’s nukes.
The Netherlands is extremely docile to big business interests.
You’d at least get a chance to migrate if you do daily backups. Not so with Discord.
Thats not what happens with a nuke - they threaten the owner and take everything: backups included.
That’s why you don’t backup on the same provider. You can always backup to the local system with encryption. And they can’t attack the owner in every jurisdiction.
I mean, Suyu already seems to be jumping to a different medium, so it sounds like this situation wouldnt have gone any differently had Suyu had their main support hosted anywhere else. Nintendo would have nuked any of the support locations, and Suyu would then have to jump to a new safe haven
Discord has no uses that isn’t already covered by other options, though. Their biggest feature is publicity.
You ppl dont remner how utterly tedious forums were. We hake karma-based systems nowadays, we cam move on
Karma is a net negative for actual community creation and meaningful discussion.
Karma+threaded is better than chronologic imo, why do you think it’s bad?
I’ve used forums that had these things 20 years ago. This isn’t new.
Idk, I wasnt around back then. But most forums I stumble upon have none of that
I should add that it wasn’t the norm back then either.
What’s kind of funny is that all of the debates around these systems are exactly the same today as back then, like for example that you should use the voting system to reward quality comments, not use it as an agree/disagree button.
Centralization = easy censorship.
Mass centralization. Old school forums like phpBB and SMF and vBulletin and new-school forums like self-hosted discourse are also centralized, but by one small user calling the shots, and it’s very clear immediately which forums are well-run. If a forum isn’t well-run with a good community, a ‘competitor’ will quickly pop up that is, and people will go to it. Sure, you have to have some tech skills but there are easy guides for all of it. Discourse is a simple docker image and it’s the best for features and engagement IMO.
Sure you have to sorry about DDoS attacks and staying patched, but you can use OVH or another host with a large infrastructure that had DDoS resistant servers. Or, god forbid, cloudflare.
Discord is trash anyway, move onto Matrix already
I see discord is entrenched enough where they dont need to care about their users.
Step 2 of enshittification:
First, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves.
It was nice while it lasted I guess, now to begin the slow search for another private community for the friend group to very slowly migrate to.
now to begin the slow search for another private community for the friend group to very slowly migrate to.
Just don’t pick another proprietary platform again.
That’s not really fair on Discord. The article mentions they received an injunction to remove the content so they were forced to do this. Anybody in the same jurisdiction would have to do the same:
“Discord responds to and complies with all legal and valid Digital Millennium Copyright Act requests. In this instance, there was also a court ordered injunction for the takedown of these materials, and we took action in a manner consistent with the court order,” reads part of a statement from Discord director of product communications Kellyn Slone to The Verge.
Everyone here is saying not to use Discord, but what are they expecting the server admins to do after moving off Discord when Nintendo’s lawyers send them a letter? Like sure, hate Discord, but the problem here clearly lies with Nintendo.
but what are they expecting the server admins to do after moving off Discord when Nintendo’s lawyers send them a letter
…Not… kick them out? Discord doesn’t kick out extremist groups. This seems comparatively mild. I think they had a reasonable expectation to be left alone. Nintendo got a court injunction but Discord didn’t fight it.
I am guessing noone is suing discord for hosting these groups were Nintendo might be threatening a lawsuit for hosting these devs.
So not a matter of morals but self-preservation.
Is the expectation that Discord will risk spending potentially millions in court with Nintendo to protect a single community? From their perspective, it’s easy to see why they’d just bend over.
Discord’s response was extreme, and that is inexcusable. I’m not trying to defend them here. The core problem here though is Nintendo harassing these developers to try to stop these projects. They could have easily been kicked out by any other platform, or sent a C&D if they tried to self-host one.
Yeah, it’s easy to see, but I don’t have to respect it.
I don’t see people hating discord for it, just pointing out that it was a bad choice from the beginning
I agree there are probably better options out there, but scrolling through the comments, I had seen a lot of discussion about Discord and not nearly as much on Nintendo. I was hoping to stir up more discussion on Nintendo’s involvement.
Discord’s reaction may be unreasonable, but it isn’t ridiculous to see them bend over for Nintendo when they’re faced with hosting a smaller community (relatively speaking) or becoming a target of Nintendo’s lawyers. Had they been on another platform (self-hosted or not), Nintendo would have likely persued them all the same. Also, as far as I’m aware, the developers themselves believe that they are within the law. The issue comes from Nintendo disregarding the law and harassing them anyway.
Host the project in a country where IP laws don’t give Nintendo any teeth.
Only if they can find you 😉
You can blame both corporations, you don’t need to suck any corpo cock. Nintendo sends the takedowns in the first place, which sure is Nintendon’t, and Discord heeds them despite otherwise profiting from those communities and without allowing any sort of measure.
You can blame both corporations
I don’t remember saying otherwise. I just found it odd that everyone was talking about Discord (at the time of posting), and there was very little discussion around Nintendo’s involvement in encouraging (and participating in) such toxic behavior.
without allowing any sort of measure.
This is what I find unacceptable in Discord’s case. Options should have been given to the devs/server admins.
Problem? These devs are exposing themselves to the corporate legal eye. Have whatever opinion you want, but they are playing in the bear enclosure at the zoo.
I obviously don’t love corporate fuckery, but I acknowledge it is pretty clear. If you fuck with a company with a huge legal team, even tangentially, even if you believe you are not infringing on anything, you could be wrong in their eyes, and they might nuke your project.
