Absolutely not.
No, but I also recognize that I may be wrong. To be honest, arrogant atheists bother me even more than arrogant theists.
To me, the whole point is that any answer is impossible to prove. Trying to definitively, factually state that no kind of higher power exists is irrational, and thoroughly undermines any claim of logic or reason. The stubborn, uncompromising kind of atheist frequently describes themselves as a logical, rational person, so I expect them to see this problem.
No. It took me a lot of hard effort to get here with my upbringing. I think parts of it are fine and for the most part regular people practice in ways that aren’t harmful to others, but (at least in the US), the entire structure of it is deeply harmful and results in good, decent folk taking actions or supporting others who do real harm.
Not really.
I like witchy stuff but only if its considerable to placebos. A rose quartz bracelet, for example, might not be scientifically going to attract love and good fortune—but its cute and makes me happy, so who knows, THAT might help.
If I had to choose a religion though, I’d probably go with one of those polytheist religions because ever since I was a kid and first went to a church camp, I decided that a singular “God” scares the shit out of me. I basically considered “God” too overpowered and decided that wasn’t for me.
Big up for happiness having a positive effect on your life.
I am atheist but I do enjoy religious spaces. There’s a stillness that I like, gives you the opportunity to just be in the moment. You don’t get many spaces like that for atheist folk (libraries are the closest I can think of). I sing a lot of choral music so often find myself in churches. I like the structure of a service and the ceremonial aspect, I just don’t believe in the content itself.
definitely relate to this. i attend church regularly despite not being religious because my family is, and though i don’t believe in the christian god at least, i do appreciate and like the environment, community, and lessons being taught. it’s very peaceful and makes you feel like you’re part of something a bit bigger, even if that’s likely just because there’s a few hundred people at any given service.
Every religious community organisation that I have had first hand personal experience with has been involved in a myriad of verified claims of abuse Including: sexual, financial, and elder. My confidence in these institutions is now nonexistent. And I find myself misidentifying with them completely. I think I am now de facto apathetically agnostic.
Hell yeah! I’m Hindu and I love it.
I loved mythology as a child and devoured every myth from every culture I could get my hands on. Later this evolved into exploration of religion. I’ve read religious books of many religions - Hindu epics and scriptures, Buddhist scriptures, Jain scriptures, Quran, Bible, Guru Granth Sahib, and the Avesta - I enjoyed them all, and my parents encouraged this exploration.
I ultimately came back to Hinduism because a lot of the stuff in it made sense and resonated with me, and let me adopt a mindset that works well for letting me process and ascribe meaning to the various experiences and phenomenon of life.
Hinduism is a collection of hundreds of belief-systems - a lot of which are uber chill, some literally cult-like, some polticised and weaponised for oppression, and some that are intense but harmless. You can choose what makes sense to you - I personally follow a pretty chill belief system, but it also makes me seem not serious about it.
Oooh and it is fun in the community - festivals, temples, ceremonies, and various cultural events -there are so many of these, and each of them very fun depending on the people involved in the celebration.
See, this is what I legitimately can’t comprehend about religion, you yourself call it mythology. Being a member of a religion requires that you essentially pretend that you’re convinced of this stuff. I can’t comprehend someone literally shopping around and picking how they’re going to view… reality. It’s just reality. It doesn’t work like that.
Hmm, I think “pretend you’re convinced of this stuff” is a long-winded way to say “believe” - belief is an inherent, basic feeling in humans - you believe your loved ones when they say they love you, you believe someone when they ask you to trust you, you believe someone when they claim something about themselves, your dog believes you will come back even though you have disappeared suddenly when you go to work, people believe love to be more than a chemical reaction inside your brain - all of these things happen without you knowing 100% sure what the exact situation is, without you knowing a numerical value for all the stats, or what will exactly happen. Sure, you could base your thinking around probabilities based only on what you have observed or simply just believe things. I think belief is one of the things that seperates setience from plain sapience.
It’s probably best to seperate a fanatic from a general religious person - I use religion to frame and try make sense of things that I can’t know by pure observation or those that don’t have a straightforward answer - what happens after death, what is purpose, why is there suffering, etc. - in an attempt to look for something other than “it’s all meaningless, everyone and everything happened by pure chance”, plus there are a lot of philosophies and stories that make for good thought experiments.
I can’t comprehend someone literally shopping around and picking how they’re going to view… reality. It’s just reality
It’s also probably best to shed the narrow “Religion = mindless god worship” view - people are complex, as are cultures. Not all religions push aggressively for blind faith and discarding of logic in face of reality (many do, yes, and I’m sure that has shaped your view on religion). In a way, you can think of religion to be positive nihilism for many - ascribing meaning to the meaningless or unexplained.
just a heads up, i’m not sure if the person you’re replying to seems very… interested in a genuine discussion. i’m another comment in this thread they said
I hate that people willfully delude themselves into believing things that they clearly know to not be true, on some level, and then argue wholeheartedly for their actual truthfulness. It’s the most nonsensical practice I can imagine someone engaging in and I struggle to see people who do so as willful, rational human beings.
which doesn’t exactly seem super open minded imo. but, for the record, i really like how you’ve explained yourself here- as someone who is curious about religion and spirituality but hasn’t found anything to specifically believe in, it’s really nice to see how others reconcile things like “shopping” for a view of the world.
do you think you could elaborate a bit on why you settled into hinduism specifically? i’m not very educated on it, but love hearing others experiences and beliefs :)
Aw that’s a bummer. But based on their full comment, they don’t seem narrow-minded about it just a bit… frustrated? Oh well I can empathise.
Haha thanks for liking it - I’m grateful I got a chance to explore without people being down my throat about it.
Regarding my choice for Hinduism - I guess it all started when I wondered about what happened after death. I grew out of the idea of eternal heaven or hell pretty quickly - started to dislike it a lot, infact - because eternity of consequences for a jiffy of a lifetime seemed too inflexible - so this eliminated the Abrahamic religions, Zoroastrianism, and some ideologies of Hinduism that believed in eternal heaven/hell.
I really liked the concept of reincarnation and karma. It made sense to me. You live a life, and the circumstances and options of your next life are decided based on the deeds of that life - you repeat this cycle until you feel like your soul has experienced all it needs to, and break out of the cycle, complete and one with the world. So the options left were Greek/Roman, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikh.
I didn’t like the Greek gods they seemed more like mortals with power than divine beings. I dropped Sikhism bc it’s monotheistic and I like the idea of multiple gods for everything. Following Jainism sincerely was a bit too extreme for me.
There were other factors like the way each religion described morality, mortal priorities, and ideal way to lead life - I liked some and disliked some, but I mostly avoided religions that were too rigid and inflexible on how daily life was supposed to be lived.
Ultimately, It ended up between Hinduism and Buddhism. I picked Hinduism because of its scriptures - Gita, Mahabharata, and the Upanishads - there’s a looot more but these influenced me a lot. And also because of the flexibility it offered - I could pick a belief system, or make up my own belief system as long as it was in line with the core beliefs of Hinduism, and you could philosophize enough to justify your beliefs (There’s even a school of thought, that believes in the gods but actively chooses to ignore them lol, and it is considered a valid Hindu ideology).
While I identify as Hindu, I haven’t picked a definite school of thought to follow - am currently following a blend of different schools of thought interweaved with my own logic, and haven’t yet solidified my beliefs - I still have a lot of reading left to do.
Ahh, I think I rambled a bit too long, thanks for hearing me out :)
If you’re interested, the short story The Egg by Andy Weir is a fun read - it is by no means a descriptor for any Hindu beliefs, but the concepts and vibes of reincarnation and one-ness of everyone/everything are pretty similar.
thanks for sharing your experience :) i’ve been vaguely interested in pursuing investigation into a religion or belief system for a couple years now, but it can be difficult to find a place to start with a lot of them. there’s so much out there to learn about so many, i think i’ve just gotten a bit paralyzed and ended up ignoring the part of me that really is interested in learning more about different religions.
The ones you’ve listed (Buddhism, Sikhism, Jainism, Hinduism, and Greek/Roman) are all actually ones i’ve been particularly interested in, but another hurdle i’ve had for most of them is the language barrier. there’s just a LOT of new terms and names to learn and remember- did you find that you had a similar experience just starting out? was just more exposure and reading what helped get over that little hump?
No problem, thanks for hearing me out - It’s the first time I’ve been asked about it on the net and it was a fun thing to write.
Ahhh I really understand your difficulty and hesitance - there’s so much confusion on where to start and how to read, and also so many translations butcher the work and frame everything in a western perspective. I had a similar experience, yeah.
I have a suggestion that sounds silly but I think is very helpful for this: Start with kids books. Pick up a religious book for kids that tells the stories and the teachings - they highlight the main events, and convey the themes and intents of that religion in a simple, easy-to-digest manner. Then read a book for young adults - they lay out the deeper parts of the religion, and grislier parts of the myths and teachings. After doing that, you become familiar with the names and places and stories, and reading the big books with all the depth of that religion becomes a tad easier. Also, you learn how much fanaticism is present in the religion from the subtext.
Oooh and I recommend listening to the lectures by some of the gurus and religious teachers online - there’s loads of them, and some are crap, so just filter them out as soon as you hear something stupid or sexist or any other crap. Religious books are a big chore sometimes, while these lectures are usually pretty easy-to-digest, and tell you a lot about the currently held beliefs of a particular religion.
After that, I think it’s just something that becomes easier as you read more of it. It does become a bore time to time, and for Buddhism, Jainism, and Hinduism, you’ll have to read works by different authors if you want to get some actual info, as there are so many versions of a scripture and so many translations of it.
thanks for the advice- the part about reading kids books is actually genius, i would’ve never thought of it! i’ll definitely look into trying my hands on some, i think that’d really help with just laying down the groundwork of understanding the religion as a whole. on the upside though of having so much content to get through, at least there’ll always be more to learn!
thanks again for the advice!
Jai Sri Ram!
Nuh uh. “Losing My Religion” by R.E.M. still feels surreal and sad for my heart.
I was raised particularly southern, like three denomination deep Protestant, (that only existed because some people argued if you should speak in tongues in church or if that would be “distracting from the lawd”.) And my family participated in the activities so I was forced to attend EVERY SUNDAY AND WEDNESDAY NIGHT until I was 18.
I don’t have a lot of good things to say about it. After I realized I only tried to follow it cause of where I was born (and what measure of truth is that?) I started to address each moral question as it came and settle it myself based off of morality I could stomach.
A lack of belief is easy when I’ve seen nothing to believe, in fact I used to feel alone in it. Eventually I realized I cannot fake it, and what reason would there be, what diety would accept it?
Not even a little bit. I’m still in awe of the universe, aware of my own insignificance, and terrified yet resigned to my eventual death though!
I’m spiritual and I guess some would say religious, though I just call it witchy. I was raised by strict parents as an evangelical Christian (Southern Baptist), but that made less and less sense as I grew older and learned more about the world around me.
I found my way to witchcraft, and working with and in nature made way more sense to me. I’m eclectic, and not very into ceremonial magic, but I do believe magic is real, and I believe we all have different paths to take in life. I currently worship Persephone, Hestia, and Loki, and I try to honor other deities where applicable. I’m studying everything I can, and love hearing about other people’s experiences.
love to see a witch in this thread! i was very interested in witchcraft back when i was deconverting from christianity, as a sort of way to wrestle control over my beliefs again, but honestly haven’t touched it much in awhile. i could never really get myself to believe in any of the pagan gods, even though i really wanted to, and still would like to if i could only bring myself to have faith and believe.
tarot is the best thing i’ve taken from that time, i love it as a tool to analyze emotions and thoughts i don’t fully understand, though i don’t use it much these days. i should try and start using it again :)
may i ask what’s driven you to worship those deities in particular? and, if you had to get over a “belief” hump like i’ve failed to, what pushed you to really believe in the old gods?
I did have to get over a belief hump. It was a slow shift from Christianity to where I am now. I felt a lot of guilt at first, and didn’t worship any particular deity. I just worked with energy and tarot, and joined a local group and took their seeker class. I didn’t feel called to work with a particular god, and I was in a place where I couldn’t really do much magic because of who I lived with and rules they had. I was feeling stifled, and I could only do research and read. In order to get through some of that hump, I read anything and everything I could get my hands on. And it really took some deep dive journaling for me to feel more comfortable with the path I was on. Everything just made more sense to me, and I was a lot happier with witchcraft than I had ever been with Christianity. The guilt just kindof faded over time, and I was able to move past it.
Then Persephone’s name just kept showing up everywhere a few years back, including in my apartment. Like a collectible card from Firefly/Serenity constantly showing up around my house, hearing about Wendy Rule’s Persephone album, Then hearing about the Spring Mysteries which go through her/Demeter’s myth. So I started researching her mythos and I really connected with it. She’s not just one thing, She’s both Iron Queen of the Underworld, and soft Maiden of Springtime Blooms. She helps the cycle of life continue and helps people with change. She helped me move away from that living situation where I could practice more freely. She’s someone I needed to hear from at that time due to complicated relationships with my parents, and helped me process going no contact with them. I’m currently trying to work more with plants to work with her energy and honor her. I sometimes get hints that she’s around, a strong whiff of vanilla out of the blue, or a beautiful patch of flowers. (That’s just me though :) Everyone has their own experiences)
Hestia, I started worshipping because she helped me manifest a house - I also like her energy and continue to worship her. She’s warm and comforting. I can honor her whenever I bake, especially for others, or light a candle for her when I celebrate holidays with my found family.
Loki is newer for me - I just feel a pull (Honestly, I’ve felt it for a while) and I’m starting down that path of researching the mythos. I’ve just set up a small altar for them and am going to learn to work with their energy. I’m kindof excited to see where it goes.
I would say if you are truly wanting to work with a deity - research all of their myths and see what you can glean from it and how you can apply their stories to your life. Maybe you just haven’t found the right fit for you, or maybe you did and it was the wrong time.
Technically speaking though - you don’t have to work with deity to do witchcraft. Witchcraft is a craft, and a lot of people work it into their existing religious structure (There are Christian witches, for example). There’s also a lot of people who are agnostic or atheistic witches. Some believe that the pagan gods are archetypes rather than actual beings. They use their stories as tools similar to how you use Tarot! There was a group on Reddit called “SASS Witches”, I don’t know if they’ve relocated at all, but its something you could look into. I know there are a lot more books coming out that aren’t so Wicca-based, too, so there will be more information out there. There’s a lot of different paths to take, and you just have to find yours.
thank you for sharing your experiences! i appreciate the insight, and may take up looking into the gods again soon, or even just practicing a bit of witchcraft. it’s such a big world, it can be daunting to try and get very into it when you’re on your own.
I hate religion. I hate ““spirituality”” (what does that even mean?). It makes my skin crawl. I hate that people willfully delude themselves into believing things that they clearly know to not be true, on some level, and then argue wholeheartedly for their actual truthfulness. It’s the most idiotic, nonsensical practice I can imagine someone engaging in. Just look at all the people in this thread searching for one that "speaks to them as if they can just pick the nature of reality out for themselves. How in the world can people do that and not make themselves crazy with cognitive dissonance?
BUT. What I do understand is that people are searching for structure, community and a sense of reverence towards… something. There have been attempts at replicating that experience sans-nonsense, but every time it’s tried it’s mostly ridiculed and laughed at by the sort of jackass atheists who can’t even empathize with that longing. It’s sad.
spirituality, as i understand it, tends to be more mindful/spiritual practices minus any typically associated religious aspects. for example, meditating and yoga would be typical examples of this, but i think spirituality can also be watching the sun rise/set, going for a walk in the woods, or taking a hot bath. anything that can help bring you to a more peaceful place of self reflection and introspection could be considered spiritual in my opinion.
how can you say that you hate that while not even knowing what it is?
I do all of those things. I choose not to call them spiritual because to a lot of people, spirituality implies a belief in the supernatural, spirits, some nonsense about vibrations, etc.
i don’t really think you get to label others’ experiences ;) imo these experiences tend to feel different to me- more checking in with my physical, mental, and emotional health, as well as feeling connected to the earth and environment around me. that’s what makes them spiritual to me personally- they just feel like more than a regular walk in the woods or hot bath. it’s like i’m connecting with something deeper inside myself and in the world itself.
Well, yes, they’re certainly more than a regular walk in the woods or a bath, which is why I said self-administered mental health practices. Meditation be like that. Still no spirits involved, which is what the word spiritual implies.
i feel like the spirit involved is my own, hence why i would consider it spirituality. but it doesn’t look like this is going anywhere though, so i hope you have a lovely day :)
I’m very curious to hear about the attempts you’re referencing in your second paragraph!
Sorry I didn’t get to this comment earlier!
The broadest answers to that question are Humanism and Scientific Pantheism, which I’m partial to. That’s what a lot of atheists have made a whole lot of fun of.
Of course humanism is still sort of opposed to what I’m talking about in thr second paragraph, or at least most humanists would be, as far as I’m aware. And most “earth religions” fall under some form of what I’d call spirituality.
In the U.S., at least, I’ve started attending my very local Unitarian Universalist church and I think they’re your best actual practical bet. As much as I whine about most religion, I deeply respect the UU’s commitment to include everyone, atheists included, and so I do my best to respect what people believe and what they want to talk about (which naturally doesn’t usually involve trying to convert people). Third spaces are too important to keep people out because of some sense of sectarianism.
And, of course, Buddhism is at it’s heart a very skeptical religion to the point that some interpret more as a philosophy, which is how I choose to see it, and it’s a philosophy and a practice that modern psychology owes a whole lot to (and should probably yank even more from). It’s literally just a framework of how to stop “suffering” and live a good life regardless of whether it seems like a good life externally. I do mostly stick to more secularized, almost new-age interpretations of it, I love the blog Deconstructing Yourself for being thoroughly dedicated to “Nondualism” while rejecting the schizo craziness it usually brings with it. But I like to learn from something closer to primary sources, too…
For which I’m relying on the Buddhist University. Of the two “original” explicitly supernatural elements of Buddhism, reincarnation was an assumption of the culture the Buddha was born into, and with that stripped away, Karma as cause and effect is just determinism without any “you’re screwed because your past self screwed up”. The second chapter of What the Buddha Taught (which is a great book) practically made me a Buddhist by illuminating just how dedicated the Buddha was to making sure people actually remained skeptical of him, only searching for what they could personally prove not really caring whether something was his idea or anyone else’s. This is a quote (supposedly from him, not that it matters) that sums it up:
Yes, Kālāmas, it is proper that you have doubt, that you have perplexity, for a doubt has arisen in a matter which is doubtful. Now, look you Kālāmas, do not be led by reports, or tradition, or hearsay. Be not led by the authority of religious texts, nor by mere logic or inference, nor by considering appearances, nor the delight in speculative opinions, nor by seeming possibilities, nor by the idea: “this is our teacher”. But, O Kālāmas, when you know for yourselves that certain things are unwholesome, and wrong, and bad, then give them up… And when you know for yourselves that certain things are wholesome and good, then accept them and follow them.
There’s also a story about him telling off one of his followers for insisting that he reveal the “mysteries of the universe”. He was pretty much like look, you’re being a dumbass, that’s won’t help you live well, that’s not important." I can respect that.
I have a complicated relationship with religion. I was raised in a very hardline and honestly kind of culty ‘born again’ environment so I have a deep-rooted distaste for conservative Christianity, but I also don’t really love the fairly shallow ‘atheism, monism, logical positivism, and physicalism’ that’s taken as the default for most people these days. I’m open-minded to spirituality but I’m cautious about taking a leap of faith directly into oncoming traffic.
If by ‘spiritual’ is meant to be belief in something that is outside of our current understanding of scientific knowledge, then yes.
Obviously, the scientific fields of inquiry do not have answers to all of humanity’s questions.
So, that would be the sense that I am ‘spiritual’…there are things going on in the immense universe that are outside (or unknown) our collective scientific understanding.
I would go a step further and say that there are many things that science, by nature, cannot answer. For example, what consciousness is and how it arises as a phenomenon.
I think a scientists reply to that would be: the phenomenon of ‘conciousness’ is a result of the complex chemical reactions between clusters of highly organized matter. Science’s ability to answer questions about consciousness is limited only by the precision of our tools and the sophistication of our methods, both of which will only continue to improve. The fact that we are currently limited in our tools and our methods, is the only reason that other less quantatative methods of understanding consciousness (like philosophy) are more effective.
This is a typical take, but the the hard problem of consciousness has very strenuously denied neuroscientists for well over a century at this point. We know a lot more about the systems of the brain, but no more about the nature of consciousness itself.
It’s still an open debate, some people don’t believe the hard problem is unsolvable, but on every debate there are really smart people who defend absurd positions. The reason I think it is unsolvable is that consciousness is by definition unobservable, except by the subject.
We can know a lot about the brain, neurons and structures etc. But that doesn’t really get us closer to understanding how an aggregation of impulses and chemical signalling takes us from what is essentially inert matter to a brain.
If you’re interested, the book On Purpose by philosopher Michael Ruse has a chapter on it that is succinct and up to date with the latest neuroscience research. I am sure there are better books out there on the subject but I can only recommend what I’ve read.
Thanks, I’ll check it out!
This is pretty much how I feel. I can’t even understand my own thoughts about “creation” let alone explain them to someone else.
In a way I guess that does make it spiritual but not necessarily religious.
In any organised sense, no, not really. Beyond that, maybe?
But no more than feeling a sense of belonging within the universe which we are a part of and connection with other parts of that universe, be they human, animal, plant or other.
If there is something else out there or on a higher plane of existence than us, I don’t believe it is within the grasp of any human to understand it, let alone write down it’s wants and desires in regards to the way we should live out lives.
No, I am an atheist and do not believe in anything super natural.
