https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u01AbiCn_Nw mental outlaw video:
hi everyone, i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish but then i stumbled upon this near-totally modular laptop rhat starts out at above 1000 bucks. do you think the cheaper laptop in the long run is just a false economy and i should go for the framework or what? if you want to ask questions go ahead but im mainly concerned about the longterm financials (and how well it will keep up over time)
To be honest you probably won’t save money as you’ll be more likely to upgrade regularly. I bought my Framework 13-inch last year and already bought a gorgeous new matte screen for it, and I’d been eyeing upgrading the mainboard with the new AMD one now. In the past with laptops I’d hold onto them for years until they couldn’t perform, and now I’m considering upgrading my device a second time within only a year?
I really do love my Framework, but the easier upgradability makes upgrading more likely, which means more expenses - unless you can restrain from upgrading more often than you would on a laptop. Since budget seems to be a concern for you this may be worth keeping in mind. On the other hand though, I’d be concerned about how long a $500 laptop will last you anyway (the ones I used for years were more like $1200).
One final thing - some parts can’t necessarily be carried over when upgrading to a new generation. For example, to upgrade to the AMD mainboard I’ll also have to buy new RAM as the generation upgraded to a newer variant. If I want to use my old mainboard as a home server, I’ll also have to purchase replacement parts for what it loses in the upgrade (new hard drive, new expansion ports, cheap case). It’s great if you had an existing need for a home server, not so much if you didn’t. Since I hate throwing out electronics I’ll end up buying more to keep it operational, even though in practice I won’t use it very much.
TL;dr - Framework makes upgrading and reuse cheaper and easier, which if you’re like me makes you spend more money and upgrade more frequently.
I mean, this logic could extend to desktop computers, and most people don’t upgrade theirs for years on end. But I can definitely see the sheer novelty of being able to do this with a laptop being a motivator…
There is one main difference in this comparison. If you upgrade your desktop consistently, those old parts are valuable on the used market, which can make the upgrades more affordable. Used laptop parts are less desirable due to their inoperability.
Depends… The SSD or RAM is just, well, an SSD or RAM. Maybe for those model specific hardware like monitor upgrades, yeah.
Personally, I’d like a framework with a dGPU option. Nothing big like an RTX 4 series, but just something more than the onboard UHD 630.Hey, what do you know, there’s an option for a detachable graphics module, hell yeah.
Could you also sell your 2nd hand old main board? That would lessen the blow of a new upgrade (considering you have no need for a home server).
I have thought about a framework laptop but my laptop is a humongous gaming laptop so I don’t think framework has the horsepower I’m looking for. The fact that it’s modular is soooooo tempting though…
They have an adapter that turns it into a desktop computer, sort of like an Intel NUC.
whos they?
Framework probably
I think its made by Framework and Coolermaster
Oh… You mean like buying it and using it as a modular desktop? That could be interesting but I don’t know if it’ll have the horse power I need anyways (for gaming). For a home server I bet it’ll be more than enough.
Also, I travel with my laptop somewhat frequently so a desktop wouldn’t be ideal (unfortunately. I prefer desktops over laptops)
No it’s so you can do something with the motherboard when you replace it other than ewaste. Here’s the part. It’s only $40 but you need to add a couple parts like a wifi module. https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case
You know the 16 has a detachable graphics module, right?
Might work well as a little media centre or server, after all the form factor is pretty slim. Me thinks if anyone wants a gaming laptop they might go for a specialised gaming laptop for that purpose.
I agree. I really do want a framework thought, the fact that it’s modular is so cool that it just makes me want to buy it… But the tech isn’t quite there yet for my needs. Hopefully one day :)
whats an intel NUC
Tiny desktop computer made from laptop components. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/boards-kits/nuc/what-is-nuc-article.html
It’s not a bad option, but probably the best choice would be to just buy a new Framework entirely and sell the old one. Other than other home-labbers I’m not sure who’d be interested in buying a last-generation Framework mainboard, as anyone with a Framework already would likely upgrade to the latest.
Big laptops aren’t really my thing, but you may be interested in the 16-inch Framework that’s coming out as it has a slot for a dedicated GPU.
There is a market on eBay, but the longer you sit on it, the less it will sell for.
People have broken parts they need to replace, and there’s a semi-active community of people who use framework parts to create mini-servers that need a little more power than a Pi.
Not selling when you don’t need it is just hording.
deleted by creator
You could either sell the old mainboard or turn it in to a server imo or if you’re really hardware knowledgable take up the challenge of making a discount lenovo yoga book 9i
Hi, Framework laptop owner here!
I love my laptop. I got it back in June (13th gen Intel) and have used it near-daily ever since. It’s got a nice build quality, I like the way it looks, and the modular slots are a nice concept (though I haven’t seen a need to swap out mine- I elected for 2 x USB-C and 2 x USB-A. You also need to pay attention to which ports go where because not all the slots support USB charging). I bought the barebones laptop, and added my own RAM and SSD to it which was significantly cheaper than getting it from Framework. I currently dual boot Linux Mint and occasionally Windows 11 and have had no significant issues with either, but there are a couple of little annoyances with Mint- the light-sensor to automatically adjust the brightness and the brightness keys conflict, so one or the other or both may not work correctly.
To your real question, is it worth it? Honestly, if performance is your sole metric, then no- there are cheaper alternatives out there for comparable performance. The premium you pay for a Framework is an investment in repairability and customizability- investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term. All the promises and commitments in the world to letting users have the right to fix or modify their own hardware mean nothing if there’s no one to supply parts. I was aware of this before buying mine, so I was fine accepting that risk- after all, at one point in time Tesla was risky too but now it seems they’re poised to be the charging standard for EVs- and there are a couple of higher-ups at AMD who like the concept and are invested in Framework, which means it may be around for a while. But that’s still something you should keep in mind.
That said, you said you were looking for a $500-ish laptop, and are now asking about one that will cost you over double that? It’s not for me to tell you how to spend your money, but it sounds like you saw a cool idea and want to jump on the bandwagon. You should be extra sure that what you’re looking for fits your needs within your budget and you’re not just trying to “keep up with the Joneses.”
TL;DR: If you have the money, and are okay with the risk of a small company existing long-term, and it has the performance you need, then yes, I think they’re good buys.
investments that may not pay off if the company doesn’t exist in the long term
FWIW, framework has open sourced all their schematics for building parts for their laptops. So in theory, even if they go under, other companies could continue building compatible parts.
Yep, there is that too. However, I expect that if Framework ever goes under, nobody else would build the parts because there’s nothing stopping any other company from making them right now.
do you need to biy usb c modules as theyre already 4 usb c’s built-in. also, how do i check if a memory stick will fit in befroehand
Expansion cards: In theory, no, you don’t need to buy USB-C modules but it’s highly recommended. At the back of each expansion card slot is a fully functional USB-C port that the card plugs into and if you need to, you can plug cables directly into them. But because those port are, as said, at the back of the expansion card slots, this means you’d have to turn your laptop upside down every time you want to plug something in. Also, accessories that are thicker than just a cable with a standard plug (such as USB-C flash drives, card readers, and so on) probably won’t fit. Another downside is that having four expansion card sized gaps under your laptop is just ugly.
I would highly recommend that you pick up at least four expansion cards so all slots are filled. My standard setup is 2x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x HDMI. I have another 1x USB-C, 1x USB-A and 1x ethernet in my backpack in case I need to swap something.
Memory: The type of memory you need depends on the mainboard you choose. The intel ones need DDR4-3200 SO-DIMMs, the AMD ones need DDR5-5600 SO-DIMMs. Note the difference between DIMM (physically larger, for desktop PCs) and SO-DIMM (physically smaller, for laptops). Capacity-wise, they all have space for two sticks of memory with up to 32 GB each. If you’re unsure, you can buy framework laptops with the RAM included. It’s a bit more expensive than buying separately but you can be sure everything fits.
Hi. Let’s set the table here. Context: What future advantage or benefit do you expect to get by investing?
-
Your budget was initially $500.
-
The absolute cheapest you can have a brand-new complete Frame Work 16 is $1,621 and 5 to 8 months (Ships Q2) assuming you get the cheapest of everything and don’t purchase secondary storage. You will have a low-end laptop with the ability to trivially upgrade it later.
For an additional $1,100 what do you expect to gain? In reality you can get an equivalent performance for $200, so the question then becomes $1,300 for what?
For $2,187 you can have an equivalent to this $1,100 ThinkPad that will likely last you 7-10 years unless it breaks first. What are you investing in for $1,087?
For $2,734 and ~8 months, I can have a high-end laptop, not the most expensive options, but my personal preference to tide me over for 10 years. Is whatever I’m looking for worth $2,200? Possibly.
- For hardware I can have schematics to, after signing an NDA.
- For hackability.
- For a laptop I won’t void the warranty for fixing.
- For never having to remove 17 screw, 5 stickers, 5 more screws, an excessive amount of plastic tabs, and possibly adhesive.
- For almost indefinite access to parts. Parts that won’t disappear from the market in 1-3 years, unless the company goes under. (Yay Cali for the 7 years of parts… we’ll see how toothy it is and how long it can withstand legal and technical sabotage. Like Apple’s software locks.)
- For a laptop with parts I like. (AMD open-sourcing like mad-lads, but not quite FLOSSing.)
- For a company that I can trust for a decade before they see the dollar dollar bills. Like Google, Facebook, Reddit, etc.
- For sustainably sourced parts.
- To support a company that won’t put me through a hoop circus just to tell me I have to buy a new product because they screwed up?
If I could get it in 30 days, maybe. If I have to wait a financial quarter, or 2, and a half… maybe I’ll wait until they ramp up production, and see what innovations they have in a year. (Related: The week I decided to buy, was legitimately the day they opened for Framework 16 orders, which I would’ve sworn was Framework 15. Must be losing my mind. In any case, maybe I’ll still get the 13 and save $500.)
Is it worth it for you? Depends on your financial situation and what you value.
apple software locks?
Some parts are now signed and can be associated to the device by Apple alone, so that third-party repair parts or even replaced official parts don’t work if the repair is not done by Apple.
oh god thats fucking evil, i thought uou meant some proproetary screw or some shit
They’ve done that one too. The software locks are just the most recent iteration.
I’m an Offical Apple phone repair tech. A lot of things stop working once you place new parts in, things that have even thrown me for a loop and made me think I did the repair wrong. I replaced a display, and the vibration and camera stopped working properly. I thought I damaged the haptic feedback motor (That I didn’t even remove) You have to sign into apple’s repair website, and ‘run a diagnostic’ in order to get the vibration function to work again after you swap a part on some models. They all do some weird shit.
Sometimes swapping a camera on a model will cause the camera in app to run at like 3 fps or Face ID will stop working until you validate the parts on their repair site. It’s shit.
-
bought a refurbished 5 year old Thinkpad via Amazon for $150. put linux on it, no regrets
Second hand ThinkPads are the way to go
what should i look for when buying a thinkpad
A good general rule of thumb is to avoid the E and L series, and stick with the X, T or P series, or the X1 Carbons. Depending on your use case, choose one with the processor and display you want.
I have a T460 with linux on it that I use for work and it has been rock solid even when I spilled coffee on it.
I have an E560, I like it, but I’m not will versed enough to know why I shouldn’t. So why did I make a terrible decision? :P
I wanna do this and use it for my home assistant server.
How’d you find it on Amazon?
No.
I don’t trust a single modern platform to last long enough to justify an investment - the company will be acquired and shuttered or the base platform will be upgraded and the current deprecated. The company today can full-throatedly promise you the world, but they know they won’t be here tomorrow to answer for those promises and there are no consumer safeguards in place to hold the future leaders accountable should framework show profit potential and therefore become a target of acquisition to exploit that potential or to squash competition.
Framework is a fun, marketable idea, but Phonebloks / Project Ara me once, shame on you…
I never really saw a computer as an “investment”. They’re pure expenses as far as I’m concerned. Any of the ones I buy could break tomorrow. I don’t buy extended warranties, so outside the legal coverage, I’m SOL if something goes wrong anyway. Considering how bad repairability is with other brands anyway, it’s not like you’re throwing away much. Many of the components are just standard hardware, too - RAM, SSD…
Considering this, I don’t really see why I would deprive myself of buying something rather novel I’m interested in, given the product already showed some reliability, in fear of some potential hostile corporate takeover. YMMV, of course.
I agree. $500 to $1200 is the range at which I would not buy a warranty beyond the initial 12 months. I have purchased (and used) warranties for Mac laptops or PC desktops for work that cost over $2k. I can justify it on the Mac because there is usually one recall issue that needs repair (eg weird keyboard issue) but they otherwise have a long life. I’m at 5 years on my current machine with no plans to update. So many of the existing Framework laptops don’t have GPUs that I can’t understand why anyone would be excited about it. It’s a fun idea but feels like you’re paying a lot of money for the opportunity to pay more in the future.
Eh, I’m a fan of the principle that things should be serviceable. Framework is great in that regard. As for GPUs - my laptops are mostly work machines, and I don’t really need one past just displaying on multiple monitors and UHD/4k support, so most iGPUs are just fine for me. When it comes to laptops, tons of RAM+a decent build quality >>> most other things for me.
I’m in a similar situation as you are though, my current laptop is from 2018 and I don’t have any plans to upgrade short-term.
I think the best part of the Framework is that the parts are replaceable for sure. The keyboard replacement I got was free but if it weren’t it would be several hundred dollars. My dad had a key broken on his laptop and they asked for $700 to fix it. Absurd.
I appreciate the healthy skepticism of typical business cycles, but at the same time - why would you buy the company and not sell upgrade parts to previous customers? If you didn’t, you’d just own an overpriced laptop company amongst a dozen other cheap laptop companies.
To end competition. Brand loyalty. Poor vision. Many reasons, none of them very kind.
As others have pointed out, to kill competition and about paradigm shift. All, from their broken POV, so you can ideally eventually sell cheap laptops/phones shitty enough to warrant annual refresh (aka, the holy grail)
They’ve kept up for three generations, I don’t see why they’d stop now.
Even if you just got one upgrade out of it, it’s probably worth the cost of entry.
Let’s not count Project Ara here, any google project has a 75% chance of being shut down before reaching consumers, they’re just not a good company
Ara was the kill, Phonebloks was first hope and the actual promise that was suffocated by Google in that instance - we’ll absolutely count this here.
Huh, that’s a good take! Didn’t think about that.
It kind reminds me of the Oneplus brand. I loved the one plus (1) so I bought a Oneplus2 only for it to be put aside fairly quickly. I remember I used to suggest Oneplus to everybody, eventually I told everyone to stay away… Eventually the brand just lost it’s focus imo… Instead trying to pump out as much overpriced garbage as possible…
It’s a subsidiary of Oppo, they just tried different brands to corner the market. OnePlus attracted the purists but money reigns and they thought they had a loyal fan base and started changing. Most people would probably say stick to pixel phones for the stock Google Android experience. I liked my OnePlus 5, it lasted for a long time. Never smashed despite being dropped all the time. Just the usb c port lost its connectivity after a few years and needed replacing.
Yep I moved from Oneplus to Xiaomi and I can’t day I’m disappointed but I’m feeling they are charging more and more and then phones aren’t getting that much better. I think my next phone will be a pixel. Mostly for the camera. As I’m getting older I notice that I don’t use my phone for too much other than photos of traveling or just messaging my friends and family on WhatsApp. Games on phone are absolute cancer anyways…
They have been here tomorrow for people who bough one with an 11th generation Intel CPU in 2021. I don’t think they are looking to get acquired either.
Companies that are looking to get acquired don’t hold press conferences to announce, “we’re now ready to be acquired”. They typically build and acquire press wins to get attention until they are a thorn in the side of a market leader who then takes a meeting with them. It’s a quiet process, but the initial conversation is almost exclusively, “we’re building this for the long term and we plan to be around for a long time”.
Just like all the products that promise long or even “lifetime” warranties - for most of these tech startups, they are well aware that lifetime means “OUR” short lifetime as a company and not your lifetime as the consumer.
Likely, but I’m hoping they last a decade like usual. I’m only slight jaded, and have similar reservations from similar history. Google, Apple, Facebook, and Reddit all had similar ideals. (“Don’t Be Evil.” Part of open source before it was popular. “It’s your data. You control your data.” Freedom of speech/information and, “Bits are not a bug.”) [Insert Joke: “My back hurts” or “Get off my lawn.”]
The good news is Framwork is priced at near parity of Apple’s products, which makes them unlikely to be bought out; they’re much more likely to get too greedy, and compromise on their ideals.
For me the deal breaker is to wait for so long before getting it. They have to step up the production. I’m fine with waiting for one month and can understand. But, the actual waiting time is ridiculous.
I suppose that depends on how urgently you need a new computer. I waited several weeks for one of the first releases, but have been using it the last two years and it has been well worth it. I accidentally smashed the case when it slipped out of my bag on concrete and was thankful I got a framework when I was just able to swap it with a new shell of their marketplace within a week
As I wrote, one month is fine. If it’s one or two weeks more, it’s ok. But, the actual waiting time is 6 months.
I get the enthousiast, niche, etc. I’m in niche things too. But, at a certain moment, you need to step up.
i was planning on getting a new laptop cheaply for about 500ish
You should plan for what you need, not for what you’re willing to pay. If you need a mobile workstation then this 16 inch laptop would be too large and heavy. If you aim for a desktop replacement, then a 13 inch laptop might be too small (docking stations exist, but still …).
The Framework laptop is a nice idea, though. But to be honest: how often did you change the components of your laptops before? One usually changes the SSD and maybe the RAM or the battery or - if you’re really adventurous - the heatpipe and/or the fan. All of this is already possible with most common laptops. If you’re unsure, get a ThinkPad.
How often did you change the components of your laptop before?
Well that’s the point, ain’t it? You didn’t because you couldn’t. Now this laptop gives you a new plethora of opportunities.
Thought the same thing. Over time I replaced everything in my laptop that I could and specifically chose a laptop that is easyish to open and get parts for.
I would love for a better processor and graphics card but the mainboard and power supply does not allow for better hardware. So I will need to buy a different laptop some day. If it were as easy as ordering new parts and putting it in there without fear of incompatibility I would love that.
I’ve changed the screen of a thinkpad from 720p to 1080p. Was cheaper to buy that way, and it was really easy to do.
ThinkPads continue to be less and less user serviceable and Linux support more quirky (especially on their AMD line). It’s all I’ve used but I sold my recent gen to get an older one and will probably go with a different vendor in the future.
It goes a bit further than that. When the CPU is too old and slow you can just slap in a newer board without having to buy a full machine. Still can’t answer if it’s worth it for OP though.
I’ve never had a laptop that I didn’t at the very least upgrade the ram on…
Yep. When the devices get older, I usually upgrade RAM (or install an SSD on very old hardware). Sometimes I even install a new battery.
And that’s the thing: I never ever had any issues doing this. Even the internal battery is just screwed in and connected with a removable plug.
While the Framework laptops are conceptually great, I just don’t see the use case in my world. It’s also pretty much vendor lock-in with the modules.
Simple answer yes long answer maybe
For me, it’s looking to be a good choice. I enjoy hardware hacking/tinkering so, the 16 inch is going to be a great platform for me to tinker on (planning to extend the hinges and put a bunch of fun stuff on the top/kb area.
It can be a long term investment in the same way a car is a long term investment - you can tune it up over the long term to extend it’s life but at a certain point you’ll likely have to replace some key components. The theory is that the cost of those repairs will be less than buying a whole new laptop though.
I’d get a cheaper laptop for $400 or so (Walmart/BestBuy have those with decent specs), add in some more RAM and swap the NVMe. True, no Coreboot (wait, do you get Framework laptops with Coreboot?), but otherwise better value for the money
I’ve been happy with mine for a while. I’ve had some minor hiccups, but I blame myself for those because I choose to run arch on the thing. The swappable ports are a game changer for me, but that depends on the user.
When I bought it I didn’t need a powerful laptop, but I may in a few years, so it made more sense to buy something for a bit more upfront. The upgradable mainboard is a crazy value add.
I’ve also been the unfortunate owner of multiple laptops that became unusable because of a broken part that was impossible to source for replacement.
You can look online at what the upgrade parts cost. If you were upgrading to the AMD main board you’re looking at $450-$700, versus $1200-1550 buying it new. The Intel i5 components are similar but i7 are a bit more expensive. Thus far they have been consistent about releasing upgraded components. You are locked in to buying from them though - so if they stop releasing upgrades you’re out of luck.
If you don’t need the latest and greatest, going used is going to still be a better value proposition.
For me it’s the only laptop that might entice me from leaving “the dark side” (Apple).
Would then install some Linux distro on it though.
I’m interested in a framework laptop for the environmental perspective, but I also think a pre-owned high end device would be faster and with smaller impact.
This question comes up for me quite a bit. It’s great that project like this exist, but if the project fails, does the environmental impact of the parts become just as bad as any other electronic device because there’s no longer a project coordinating the manufacturing of replacement parts?
Additionally, refurbished Lenovo Thinkpads, while obviously not nearly as customizable/modifiable, may (emphasis on may) have a longer shelf life due to build quality (as well as general care and maintenance by the user), and are probably easily repairable by hardware repair shops.
Environmental Impact, Longevity, and Cost should be the major priorities for the conscientious discerning tech consumer, and imho in that specific order.
In my opinion, the Framework laptop is great for people who want the newest and fastest CPUs, whule also getting the customizability and repairability. I mean yeah, I’d buy an older Thinkpad, but programming in C doesn’t require much compute power or RAM. However, my graphic design and video editor friends won’t make a living using the same machine as I do. For them, the Framework is miles better than any other brand new machine with the same specs (if they want repairability, etc.).
The environmental impact of the parts is already just as bad as any other laptop.
Pollution happens at the point of production!
If a person were worried about the environmental impact, a glass and aluminum mac would be the better choice. Replacing a bunch of plastic with easily and efficiently recyclable metal and glass has a huge impact.
